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February 08, 2006

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Stephen Reeves

It is sad that the extremists have taken over both sides of this debate.The "Right Wing" it is a good excuse to forget about writing on other issues, and for the authorities in Iran,Syria etc it distracts from local domestic problems.

Bill-Muskoka

Stephen Reeves,

I think you have it Old Chap! LOL

The old argument of 'Freedom (free-dumb) of the press, is so over used by the xenophobic rednecks, religious bigots, and ignorant morons, that it has become a useless term.

Freedom of the press has and was the issue of governments censoring the news media to cover their own petards. Likwise for the greedy business tycoons, racists, and the list is almost endless.

No where, ever, has the term been an excuse for poor judgement, outright incitement to riot, or the promotion of blatant hatred. Nazi Germany, maybe, Iran maybe, but there the GOVERNMENT was the proprietor of the news, not the news media.

The choice made by the Danish newspaper was, plain and simple, STUPID, INSENSITIVE, and simply a CRUDE ATTEMPT TO GAIN ATTENTION.

Well, they certainly have accomplished that. Perhaps the Danish government will hand the newspaper the tab for repairing all their embassies, making restitution to those injured by rioters, etc.

The law still upholds responsibility, and freedom of the press is not regarded as an excuse for blatant THOUGHTLESSNESS resulting in loss of life or property! At least not in the civilized world, nor the ancient.

Hellpig

Liberalism is a mental disorder

Ron Mann

Turns out that a) the 12 (real) cartoons appeared in Egyptian newspaper months ago, b)many depictions of Mohammed appear in antiquity and more recent (see todays WSJ) c) even the US Supreme Court has images of Mohammed in its ecumenical portraits, d) at least one of the three fake cartoons has nothing to do with Islam (and was a clear provocation by Akkari).

This appears to be a crisis manufactured by
the Danish Moslem leaders.

Stephen Reeves

Further to my comment the Sandmonkey had found that an Egyptian paper published the cartoons back in October with no fuss!
And he goes on to say'

"Now while the arab islamic population was going crazy over the outrage created by their government's media over these cartoons, their governments was benifitting from its people's distraction. The Saudi royal Family used it to distract its people from the outrage over the Hajj stampede. The Jordanian government used it to distract its people from their new minimum wage law demanded by their labor unions. The Syrian Government used it to create secterian division in Lebanon and change the focus on the Harriri murder. And, finally, the Egyptian government is using it to distract us while it passes through the new Judiciary reforms and Social Security Bill- which will cut over $300 million dollars in benefits to some of Egypt's poorest families. But, see, the people were not paying attention, because they were too busy defending the prophet by sending out millions of e-mails and SMS-messages, boycotting cheese and Lego and burning Butter and the danish Flag. Let's not even mention the idiots who went the usual route of "It's a jewish conspiracy", spouted the stupid argument about the Holocaust, or went on a diatribe with the old favorite "There is an organized campaign-headed by the west and the jews- to attack and discredit Islam, and we have to defend it".
thanks

link here
http://egyptiansandmonkey.blogspot.com/2006/02/boycott-egypt.html

old_boot

Hellpig: "Liberalism is a mental disorder." There is only one thing to say about this comment. In the words of the great Bugs Bunny, "What a Maroon!"

arthurdecco

"Liberalism is a mental disorder"

Posted by: Hellpig

Anyone who would choose 'Hellpig' as an online identity is not someone whose opinions carry much weight, Hellpig - especially when the opinions expressed are idiotic.

Get some rest - you've been awake waaaaay too long.

Bill-Muskoka

Hellpig,

And peradventure the DSMR-III lists your disorder as...?

Enquiring minds want to know!

So,, eh, 'What's up Doc?'; or in the modern (illiterate vernacular) 'Wasup Dude?'

ShalomK

Well it seems some Danish Christian newspaper runs some cartoons ,yes cartoons (believe it or not) and some of the Muslim world goes cukoo bananas and blames...wait for it......

THE JEWS...

as usual the Jews are responsible for everything..in retribution An Iranian newspaper is running a `Holocaust Cartoon competition`,a Dutch muslim group published a cartoon with Anna Frank in bed with Hitler etc etc.
These vile cartoons are accompinaments to many years of vile anti semitic cartoons in the Arab Press...and then the same people have the supreme CHUTZPAH to cry foul?

As usual its Israel or the Zionist or the Jews fault...

GO FIGURE !!!!

Jay Currie

Either you have a free press which you are willing to defend or you don't. The cartoons were mildly offensive when they were published. Some Islamists of radical bent decided to take those cartoons, and a picture of a French farmer with a pig snout on, on a round of the centers of radical Islam with predictable results.

The good news is that the fanatics - as well as the Syrian and Iranian governments, but I repeat myself - have underscored their unfitness to live in Western societies or, for that matter to be trusted to run nations. The moderate Muslims, of which there unheard millions, have taken the bit between their teeth and are calling for the arrest of the fanatics who are so ruthlessly abusing the very freedom of speech which is the cornerstone of Western democracy.

Strangely, the fact that there is a rich tradition of humour and parody in Islam, has made the fanatic look both crazy and rediculous. A fact not lost on the vast majority of Muslims who have understood precisely how entirely disproportionate the Islamist's response has been.

anonymous

I find the interpretation of the prophet Muhammad cartoons troubling not so because it is said to be creating "global crisis" or cultural clash, but because the hegemonic interpretations of the cartoons by radical Islamists that cartoons are meant to denigrate the Muslims and their faith. It seems to me secular-liberal scholars/academic/activists put no fight to this one-sided interpretations of the cartoons, but only hide behind the right to press and free speech of secular society.

I think the cartoons are meant to point the emerging views in Europe through symbolic depiction of the prophet: the first is, because of global-hype of Islamic militancy, how European have been changing their view about Islam, and the second how Islamic militant are using Islam.

It has never occurred to me that the European cartoonist has ever wished to denigrate Muslims faith or the prophet. The message is misrepresented and should have been heard by the all with care and understanding. I think cartoons are also meant to caution for European politicians that if they do not do enough, the European Muslims are likely to be the 21st century Jews of Europe and also for Islamic extremists to think their political strategies for fighting their so-called Islamic causes. I would also argue the cartoons did not in fact cause the Muslim’s anger but bring the reality out into the surface.

john Cameron

Now, if the news media (mainly CNN at the moment) on this side of the world would just ignore the story and its aftermath, thereby removing the images the extremists know will continue to fan the flames, then this would all go away, overnight.

No big deal, just stop reporting these silly antagonistic stories, but then 'the other side' sure knows how to get our attention, don't they?

Rebecca Winter

Democratically elected leaders do not control the press which is a separate independent entity. This is the bedrock of democracy- it took centuries to achieve this. A leader may express sympathy for the offended but cannot apologize for a free press publication.
If it is wrong today, it will be wrong tomorrow and it will be wrong whenever it contravenes a strongly held principle in some future offensive article or illustration. Is the western secular world that spent centuries extracting itself from its own constraints now subject to Islamic law?

Voice of Sanity

The difference is simple, Jews and Christians do not blow themselves up, killing women and children they have never met and who have done them no wrong. This act of murder can be placed entirely in the hands of muslims. So long as the people of Islam continue to allow this sort of thing to occur with their religious sanction they will continue to be seen as the enemy. Their is no descrimination save what they choose for themselves.

Bill-Muskoka

Voice of Sanity,

Perhaps you have forgotten the 'loving' burning of heretics, falsely accused witches, stonings of people, the numerous Inquisitions (with their torture methods), the Crusades, all to 'save their souls' the Christians and Jews did?

Some of the worst in history were the Cromwell Puritans, remember them? They were the settlers that helped start the U.S.?

Today, they may not be using suicide bombers, but they still practice their cruelty with laws justifying killing other human beings. Whether it be by the death penalty, bombs, starving them, ignoring them, embargoing them, denying medicines, destroying people's cultures, denying them civil rights, etc..

Not one religion can hold its head up and say to the world...'We are the Pure Ones'! Not one.

Funny how the true principles religion can teach, to those willing to learn, are so often replaced by eliteism and self-interest.

angus

You say that the production of such images is wrong and yet you decry the use of spying on citizens. You can't have it both ways. Either you accept that damaging images such as these must be allowed to be produced as the price for living in a free society or you accept that the society must have tools prevent such images occuring.

President Bush has taken a consistant approach that the cartoons are bad and that spying on people is good. The EU and the UN have shown consistancy and decided that the cartoons are bad, so propose regulations on free speech wrt religion.

By all means critique the cartoons, but unless you want your phone tapped and your work subject to stringent legal constraint you must make very it clear that you fully support the papers right to publish these images.

John Henderson

I'm sorry but I don't recall any witch burnings, or Oliver Cromwell, or the crusades. I am a few centuries too young for that. I do remember people strapping bombs onto their kids, directing them to blow themselves up next to crowds of other peoples kids. One such mother was in the news two weeks ago when she was elected to the Palestanian Authority based on her producing so many suicide bombers. I remember a lot of things like that.
We do not have to be pure to resent a new state religion being forced upon us, especially one where life seems cheap and freedom is a stranger. Can't liberals get something so plain and simple from us ordinary Joes.
If the 12 pictures became 15 pictures(three were frauds) then someone made the 3 most grevious cartoons themselves, that someone obviously being the Muslin clergy. That's an awful sin against Islam and why does the people who preach at us so-called extremists clam up a mob that murders priests?
Why am I supposed to remember the crusades like they were somehow my fault? It it because you so want to understand the murder of a priest? Neither side was born during the Crusades.The symbolism has to mean something now that Westerners are parroting it. How could something so ancient prepare us for a new state religion and wipe away all but some one elses faith.

Bill-Muskoka

John Henderson,

You, obviously, need a library visit! Old injustices seldom die...even with centuries. Its human nature. We have an informed choice. Choose wisely!

Jay Currie

Bill-Muskoka, right you are!

There were a lot of really disgusting people acting in the name of their own private Jesus. It was, after all, a good Christian knight who said of the heretic Cathars, "Kill them all, God will know his own".

Now, with a lot of struggle and more than a little bloodshed the Christian world went through the Reformation and then the Enlightenment. The Reformation lead directly to the Protestant excesses, the Inquisition and the slaughter of such folks as the Anabaptists. To which the Enlightenment, with its insistence that the Church and State be seperate, was a direct and final response.

Islam is in the throes of its Reformation. The iconoclasim of the Taliban, the spiritual rigidity of the Ayatollahs and the Wahhabi imams is all about the "reform" of Islam from the perceived decadence of the Ottomans and the Caliphate which proceeded them. It is not entirely invalid to compare OBL to Oliver Cromwell - though Cromwell was, I would argue, a far greater and more important man.

What Islam has not enjoyed is an Enlightenment on the order of the intellectual hurricane which swept through Christiandom in the late 17th and early 18th centuries. Until it does, Islam will remain a trapped between the invitation of modernity and the fear that change will destroy the foundations of the faith.

For the West, the Enlightenment was the mainspring of everything from democracy and freedom of speech to market economies to serious science. If Islam continues to insist that there is such a thing as, to give V.S. Naipaul's sterling example, Islamic Urban Planning, it will remain mired in a 19th century longing for a 13th century paradise which never was.

This will cause seething and, except when the, to quote John Kerry, terrorist nuisance, become to great, the West's continuing dismissal of the Arab and Islamic world as also rans in the race for the future. A part of the world which would be about as significant as Africa were it not for the oil - which is running out in any case.

arthurdecco

"...this would all go away, overnight.

No big deal, just stop reporting these silly antagonistic stories..."
Posted by: john Cameron

Good idea, john Cameron! Let's ignore what's going on in the world! We'll sleep better. If we don't hear about it, it's not happening! Is that what you’re suggesting with your post, Mr. Cameron?

…psst, I hate to be the one to tell you this john, but that didn't work for me back when I was two years old and I thought that if I hid my eyes behind my hands, the people looking at me would disappear….How old are You, john?

"Funny how the true principles religion can teach, to those willing to learn, are so often replaced by elitism and self-interest." Posted by: Bill-Muskoka

ain't it the truth, Bill, ain't it the sad truth?

Mr. Currie - Thanks for your post. I needed to read that.

And thank you, Ms. Zerbisias, for providing the forum.

...Gee... am I morphing into Hayley Mills as Pollyanna, Antonia? Call an ambulance! LOL!

Voice of Sanity

This is the mantra of those who are causing this struggle. "Our people have been wronged"
In the real world unfortunately the only ones wronging anyone at the moment are the fanatics blowing themselves and others up for the glory of a god who has yet to comment on the issue. It seems to me that holy sanction would include victory not centuries of failure and death. Islam began in blood when the prophet marched armores if the "faithful" across all of the middle east killing anyone who would not convert to his point of view. It took literally centuries to bring to an end the muslim empires. But fail they did. Tyrany has a way of turning in on itself. These bombers in iraq are killing far more muslims than they are christians and the iraqi people are a perfect example of everything that is wrong with islam. They do not seperate into distinct faiths (protestant, anglican, roman catholic, etc) Instead they resolve their differences through murder. The simple fact is that this is not the dark ages in america, china or europe. It is the dark ages in the middle east and that is the choice of the people who live there. The jews dont demand people dress in jewish fashion. The jews dont dictate how a person is to live at all. They understand what the muslims do not. It is for GOD to judge. We all agree that we Will be judged. Live in a righteous fashion and heaven shall be your reward. When the muslims kill each other only one thing is sure. Hell shall be their fate. Allah does Not give sanction to the killing of muslim children and to hide behind the idea that all things are His will to cloak butchery in religion. In time his will shall be known to these wanton savages. And the devil shall be his messenger as they are taken to the pit.

arthurdecco

"The simple fact is that this is not the dark ages in america..." posted by Voice of Sanity

I disagree with your assessment. It is indeed “the dark ages in america”. Your own smugness, ignorance, insularity and unquestioning adherence to religion are all evidence of it.

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