Updating the NBA's 50 Best

Time to wrap it up around here, as is the normal Friday custom:

E-mailer Bob Brown sends in a note about the NBA's upcoming All-Star weekend coverage, including TNT's addition of 10 more players to the NBA's 50 Greatest Players list of a decade ago -- actually, it was nine years ago, but never let the facts get in the way of a debate, good or otherwise.

AP PHOTO/ANN HEISENFELT

Spree bobblehead up for grabs, and a Spree moment to mark it.

Anyway, Bob fell for it, and so did I, because I'm a sucker for lists: "I’d like to see Bob McAdoo added to the list for starters," says Bob. I'll second that, McAdoo being one of the most notable omissions when the list originally came out. And what about Dominique Wilkins? Is it his time? Or are those chips 'n salsa commercials with Isiah and Kareem just too fresh in our minds?

Who else? From the crowd that have dominated the NBA in the last decade, Tim Duncan and Kobe Bryant are cinches. Allen Iverson and Jason Kidd, too. What about Robert Horry? Steve Nash? Kevin Garnett? Shawn Bradley?

Ha. Almost caught you there, didn't I? Dirk or Ben Wallace?

Let's fill out the list, and if you want to really get creative, scratch who you figure should be taken off the original list of 50 (Dave Bing? notes Bob. Yes, Dave Bing, sez I. I saw him as a little shaver at MLG and he was worthy in my book). Send in your top 10 suggestions. I've got a Latrell Sprewell bobblehead to award to the one selected at random from the entries, and we'll see if we can come up with 10 names that get the most consideration. I'll keep it open till midweek next week, leading up to the all-star weekend beginning Feb. 17 in Houston.

I mean, a Spree bobblehead? Let the e-mail blizzard begin.

One last read  Two last reads: A couple of things from across the Atlantic this week, with Simon Jordan's latest Observer piece an instant classic. Regular readers know this kind of stuff hits me right between the eyes, the distance between the sports establishment and its core audience a real sore point (and along the same lines, did I tell you that Capitals owner Ted Leonsis has himself a blog -- thanks to Off Wing Opinion for the tip. I'm not holding my breath for the MLSE Board Blog):

It may sound glib, but a chairman really needs to know and to feel the culture of the game, to be a fan. Steve Gibson at Middlesbrough, Delia at Norwich, Milan Mandaric at Portsmouth: all single-minded, respected, committed fans. I'm not saying Milan grew up in Yugoslavia calling himself 'Pompey mush', but he gets fan culture.

Oh, Aki is back, and how:

Preparation is boring. So are footballers — we are not that exciting at all. At least I’m not, although I’ve been suggested to be a bit of a nutter. I’m just bang on boring most of the times. My highlight of the day on Fridays is to get skinny takeaway cappuccino from Starbucks.

One last look: Best long-range goals, Daft Punk providing the soundtrack. Amazing stuff, although it all becomes a blur after a while.

Breaking news: The NBA has named Gilbert Arenas is the injury replacement for Jermaine O'Neal. And apparently the Olympics are starting.

Sports around town: Big weekend for the U of T Blues, with Carleton in town on Friday and Ottawa on Saturday. Women at 6 both nights, and men's game at 8 -- couple of weeks ago, the guys were slapped down in the nation's capital and with the regular season finishing next Wednesday, these are rather large games.

Watching: Rangers at Leafs, 6 p.m. Saturday, CBC. With the Olympic break starting, this is the last time we'll see them for a while. Mind you, that's not an entirely bad thing.

Not watching: X-Games, 12:30 a.m. Saturday, TSN. After a full day of Olympics, am I really going to stay up half the night to watch more snowy high jinks?

Comments

[Mark Freedman]

Top 10 List:

1) Dominique Wilkins (how he was left off the 1st one, I'll never know).
2) Kobe Bryant. 3 rings. And now his scoring titles. Sort of a reverse Jordan.
3) Allen Iverson. Possibly the best little man ever.
4) Tim Duncan. Repeat after me: Tim Duncan is the best player in the NBA.
5) Kevin Garnett. A total freak. 7 ft tall with 2 guard skills. He's all over the box score.
6) Alex English: 2nd most points in the 1980's next to Kareem. 11th all time. And he averaged well over 21ppg for his career. He was silky smooth at 3. From 1980 to 1989, he never scored less than 24ppg.
7) Bob McAdoo: ibid

And now three finalists who are a work in progress. The previous 7 are ready to go now. The next 3 need a few more years to be considered.
8) Tracy McGrady. If he stays healthy, he'll put up more gaudy stats. Taht and if he doesn't piss off his team. Oh, he won't win a championship.
9) LeBron James. It's that simple. He's that good.
10) Dwayne Wade. He's made the leap. He's top 5. He's got Shaq as a body guard. He could win a title or two before it's done. Shaq has taken two other little guys to the finals (Penny and Kobe).

[cy]

I forgot to give ya my list (Mark, Wade????):

1 Duncan. Duh
2 Kobe. double duh.
3 Iverson. dudududu.
4 LeBron. 'Cause if Shaq could make top 50 it in '97, LeBron can make top 60 in '06
5 McAdoo. I think we're all agreed he got jobbed last time
6 Dominique. Or as we used to call him, 'ominique (obviously).
7 Garnett. I guess so, but here's after here it gets tough.
8 Kidd. Twice to the finals, five-time first team all-star, four times all-star ... can't shoot a lick
9 G Payton Great defender, floor leader, could score some ... like Kidd, oh for 2 in finals.
10 Reggie Miller ... No team pushed those 90s Bulls to the limit like Reggie and the Pacers.
9

[Mark Freedman]

I love Reggie. I mean, I really love Reggie. He's my boy from UCLA. Love his game, his swagger and his big shots. But he's not a Top 50 guy. Payton is almost there, but not quite. Both are great, at the cusp, but not there.

I think Wade out of everyone else in the NBA could be in the top. He's got a load of talent. Is young. Has Shaq to protect him. And could win a title or two before it's done. Now, if he didn't have Shaq, I wouldn't put him on the list. Kinda like Scottie Pippen. Pippen was great with Jordan and even those 1.5 years without Jordan in Chicago in the triangle. Would he have been that good without Jordan or the Triangle? Who knows? It just proves he did his best with that he was given. And I think Wade is in that situation. Wade will score 25ppg, 7 dimes and a some boards and steals with some big shots and dazzling plays.

[cy]

Reggie would have a ring, maybe two, without MJ. Yes, it's a hypothetical, but having sat there in Market Square during two Eastern Finals I can really say that these things were as taut and either/or as anything you'd want to see, anything I've ever seen. They were great, great sports dramas. And Reggie was a main guy.
Funny thing though. The Pip/MJ thing was exactly what was on my mind as I got on the subway today (until I pulled out Treason's Harbour, anyway, and got lost in the rigging). Pip was a fine player who got greater thanks to being in the right place at the right time. Reggie was a different cat, a pure shooter, and but for a bounce or two, it might have worked out different. I put Reggie in. If I have to, I boot out Pip.
Oh, how I wish Skeets would weigh in on this, but he seems to have taken the week off.

[Marijan Kalman]

THE BEST player in this league is SHAQ.

They changed rules only because Wilt was too good and they moved to ZONE (in Yugoslavia) even women were forbiden to play this JUNK)
because Nobody on this planet could stop SHAQ one on one.
Change rules to MAN TO MAN and Shaq and Wade are going to win another three.
Then you cant treeple team Shaq and cheat like today.
No 1 Wilt
No 2 Shaq

Others are irrelevant......

[Illan Kramer]

Why does everyone have such a hard-on for Kevin Garnett? Yes, he puts up nice numbers, but he hasn't done anything of any consequence when it matters. Repeat after me, Kevin Garnett is the Peyton Manning and Alex Rodriguez of the NBA; a guy who will win your fantasy team a championship, but never the team for which he plays on the court.

Reggie Miller, Tim Duncan, Dominique Wilkins, Kobe Bryant should be on the list.

[Brian O'Connor]

Iverson, Nash, Duncan, Kobe (No last name necessary), Petrovic, Rodman (all those rebounds trump the wedding dress), Kidd (grudgingly, but he tops the list of coach killers), Reggie Miller (both names have to be used), 'Nique, and lastly a freakish combination of Bonzi Wells and Bruce Bowen.

In retrospect, is Charles Barkley really worthy of the title of one of the 50 greatest? Sure he was 6'4" generoulsy, but shouldn't he be listed as one of Tim Horton's greatest customers instead? I don't raise your kids, indeed. He wasn't the "Round Mound of Rebound" for nothing. Also, I'm Jamaican, so Ewing is obviously one of my 50, but is he one of THE 50?

I would prefer the Spree bobblehead right after he realized that no team would call this year.

[James Mirtle]

I can't see the Blues men's team putting up much of a fight against Carleton, who are once again a shoe-in for a final four spot, but the women's game will be a good one. Good to see some CIS mentionings in here (even if it is U of T).

[cy]

They beat Ottawa last night pretty easy, by the sound of it. Carleton is very very very good, but I think Blues have a shot at an upset. They're an improving team that plays great D.
I know what you mean about KG, Illan. But look at it this way -- all you need is six more names and you've got a shot at the bobblehead!
Marijan, have you seen Shaq lately? He's expanding faster than NASCAR.

[Illan Kramer]

Fair enough. So I've already listed Reggie Miller, Tim Duncan, Dominique Wilkins, Kobe Bryant.

Here are the other 6:
Joe Dumars
Dennis Rodman (both are winners proven winners, although neither has spectacular stats)
Allen Iverson (amazing what he can do for his size)
Muggsy Bogues (a bit of a gimmick pick, but what the hell)
Dirk Nowitzki (has some flaws like Garnett, but at least isn't afraid of taking the last second shot; also revolutionized the 7 foot small forward position...which is really what he is)
Manute Bol (hey, even David Stern has got a sense of humour, right?)

[J.E. Skeets]

Chris, I love this stuff.

I got: Kobe, Kidd, Duncan, Garnett and Iverson. Those five are locks. Easy.

Then I go with Rodman (best defensive forward ever), Reggie, 'Nique (it's him or English, and I've got to take the "Human Highlight"), McAdoo (MVP, 2 rings, 25 & 11, come on) and LeBron with my "future" pick.

A few that I considered but had to pass on: GP (a ring and he'd be in), Dirk (not yet), Webber (even though his stats are McAdoo-like), Wade (another "future"), T-Mac (the back scares me) and Nash (toughest one to not include because of the MVP trophy).

And oh, Brian, I'm sorry champ, but Charles Barkley is actually one of the Top 25 NBA Players of All Time!

He's got an MVP (was close 3 other years), is Top 20 all-time greatest FG%'s, made a shit load of free-throws, was the best rebounder for his size ever, he could pass (5 assists/game in '93), and overall was just a great team leader and character.

Now give me that Spree bobble-head; I've got a family to feed damn it!

[Gabriel]

With all the respect to Reggie, I think Chris Mullen should be on the Next 10 List ahead of Reggie. Since Chris was amazing and is a much better shooter than Reggie. BTW, did I mentioned that Chris was part of the Original Dream Team while Reggie is not!

The others 9 players are as follows:

Joe Dumars, don't know why he was left out the first time.

Dennis Rodman, 5 rings and many rebounding titles, and being one of best defenders of all time just can't be left out. BTW, if he played for the Bulls during the first 50 players selection, he would be on the list already.

McAdoo, a crime that he is not there now.

Dom. Wilkens, if it was not for MJ, he would have more Scoring Titles.

Mark Price, the best point guard at that time, yes, he was even better than Isiah and Stockton.

Kobe, Need I say more about Kobe

AI, another freak of nature, same as Kobe

Duncan, Best Player in the NBA since 2000

The last one is a tough one, KJ, LJ, Mutumbo, Tim Bug, Grant Hill, Nash, Dirk, KG, Payton, Kemp, T-Mac, Kidd, Vince, Reggie, Lebron and Ben Wallace could all be on the final spot but I am giving my final spot to someone who I believe deserve to be among the great. He is none other then
Jeff Hornacek, you cannot find any player like him anymore and thats what made him great.

Take Care

Gabriel

[Bob Brown]

Okay, here's my list:
Bob McAdoo
Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Bernard King
Kevin Garnett
Adrian Dantley
Alan Iverson
Connie Hawkins
Dominique Wilkins
Chet Walker

[Another Chris]

Admittedly, I never saw McAdoo play and I know very little about him, so I'll defer to the experts who say that he belongs. His numbers easily back up the argument for his inclusion (how do you leave off a guy who averaged almost 28 ppg over his first 6 years?).

One of the arguments made in McAdoos's favour in HoopsHype is the fact the he's the only regular season MVP that wasn't in the original 50. If we add him and then add Tim Duncan and Allen Iverson (gimmies), we'll be leaving Steve Nash and KG (6-time all-NBA) as the only MVPs not on the list (Nash is potentially a two-time MVP). I can't do that, so we'll add Nash and KG too. So now we have:

1. McAdoo
2. Duncan
3. Iverson
4. Nash
5. Garnett

Now it's get trickier. No matter how much I hate the Black Mamba, he deserves to be on the list. You can't ignore his numbers and his rings. And using the agument made for McAdoo above (28 ppg in his first 6 seasons), I have to add Dominique Wilkins who averaged alomst 28 ppg over an 11 year period (84-94). On a side note, wouldn't Wilkins be a better comparison for A-Rod and Peyton?

6. Bryant
7. Wilkins

Kidd is a 7-time all-star and a 5-time all-NBA first team member (not to mention his 67 career triple-doubles). He belongs.

8. Kidd

I can't make a case for Rodman due his lack of offense. I don't care if he was the best defensive player of the last 25 years, you need to have a two-way game to be considered one of the best all-around players. At the same time, I don't want to discount the value of great defense. That's why I add The Glove to my list. He's a 7-time all-star and 8-time all-NBA defensive first team member.

9. Payton

Reggie Miller does not become one of the best ever just because he stays around a long time. He was only a 5-time all-star and never made all-NBA first or second team. He's the Rafael Palmiero of the NBA - great career stats but never one of the greatest. LeBron and Wade are still too young and don't belong. T-Mac doesn't make my list due to the fact that he's a bitch. With one spot left, I'm going to go with Disco Dirk for not only being a great NBAer, but also an unbelievable international player.

10. Nowitzki

[marc]

wow, some good names going up, and a lot of them are the obvious choice, which is where I'll start my list:
Kobe
Miller
Duncan
Iverson
Garnett
McAdoo

Other possibilities:
Nowitzki
Lebron (I really hate to admit this, I was really hoping he wouldn't live up to the hype)

Sleeper:
Ben Wallace (what's not to love about this defensive rebounding machine)

Really want on the list but probably won't make it:
Nash (gotta love Captain Canada but he's only just getting the respect he deserves)

People that I don't think that should be on this list:
Wade (he's only had a couple good seasons, if he keeps this up, then I'll consider him, plus, how good is he w/o Shaq? will he be like Pippen w/o Jordan?)
Grant Hill (too injured)
Kemp (too fat, too many drugs)
T-Mac (not consistant enough & too injured)

[J.E. Skeets]

Another Chris...

All 'Nique ever did was score. That's it.

So explain to me why can a superstar offensive player like 'Nique can make your list, but not a defensive-minded one like Rodman? I mean, he's just as one-dimensional, but I would argue it’s on the harder – albeit, less glamorous – end of the court.

With that said, a few of your arguments have definitely swayed my initial candidates. I agree with your Reggie comments, and therefore have got to replace him with The Glove.

In addition, I want to see King James put up Oscar/Magic like numbers for a few more years before he’s on, so I’m gonna bump him and give the final spot to Nash. Got to have all MVP’s on the list – especially if he wins a 2nd one this year!

So, a quick recap of my new Top 10 list: Duncan, Iverson, Kidd, Kobe, Garnett, McAdoo, Rodman, ‘Nique, Nash and Payton.

[Bob Brown]

I just realized that I forgot the great “Buffalo Bob” Lanier!! Sorry, but I have to kick somebody off and it’s going to be AI in favour of Lanier.

[Another Chris]

Skeets - I pondered the Rodman question for a while but decided that he wasn't worthy because he had the opportunity to focus solely on the defensive side of the ball. How many other players have been given that option? What if Karl Malone knew going into each game that his only role was to play defense and get rebounds? Would he have been the greatest defender of all time? Could he have got 20+ rpg? Quite possibly. It's hypothetical, but you could probably make that argument for many players past and present. If given the opportunity to focus 100% of their time and energy on defense, how many players could have done what Rodman did? That's why I left him out. And on the flip side, everyone wants to score in the NBA, but not everyone can drop 28 a game for over a decade. What's funny is that I was actually intending to keep Dominique out of the list, but his scoring average just couldn't be denied.

[Erin J.]

1.Dominique Wilkins-Should've been on the list the 1st time around. The Human Highlight film scored and excited with the best of them. I just think b/c of the time he played in with the greatest talents(Magic,Zeke(Isiah),Bird,Jordan,etc) he was eluded a championship. That doesn't make him less of a talent than someone like Shaq,Kobe,etc just b/c they have rings since they play in a time with lesser talent IMO. Had he been around today/Kobe's time there would be no contest the man was something else.

2.Bob Lanier-Another should've been there the 1st time around. He was a great player and kept the Pistons afloat in the 70s.

3.Reggie Miller-"Miller Time" was very cool & he is a great player.

4.Joe Dumars-Is class as well as talent personified. He was the anchor that Isiah needed to carry the weight and together they kicked butt and won championships. I just think his quiet manner has dimed his career b/c he wasn't in your face like a Jordan,Kobe,etc or a 'talker' he was a doer and that's all that matters. And he is a good coach as well.

5.Kobe-I wonder what the future holds it's uncertain to me. I also think he was lucky to come in when he did most of the talent had left, so he shined.

6.Allen Iverson-The boy can play and he has heart. He is one of the best small men, Zeke's the best for me, but for active players today he is the one. Hope he gets a ring, b/c he plays hard and it's tough to be a small man in a big man's game.

7.Bob McAdoo-It's time.

8.Dennis Rodman-A freak of nature in more ways than one. He was a terrific rebounder. He fought off guys like Jordan,Shaq,etc. Also he wasn't a ball hog although he could score.
9.Maurice Cheeks-A great man and someone to want on a winning time in his prime. He was key in getting Dr.J he long desired championship ring. Again I think his quiet nature steals some of the thunder of his career. He was a great playmaker.

10.Connie Hawkins-A legend, he has been a fixture for decades and he doesn't have to play to do so.

***It's time to not be so giving to the new-bees for ratings & appreciate the one's who paved the way and played in much harder times with great(many would say greater) talent. Appreciate the real Legends while they are still here. Many of the newbees need to prove themselves more and stand the test of time,sure they're getting attention b/c they are playing. But I doubt we will be talking about many of them 15 years after they careers like Kareem,Magic,Bird,Dr.J,Zeke,Dominique,Jordan,Oscar Robertson,Wilt and a few others.

[gene]

These are the greatest player ever to play basketball since 1960. Dr.J is include because of his ABA day's. Any other player by decades is bull.
Wilt,Russell 60's
Kareem, Dr.J 70's
Magic, Bird 80's
Jordan, Hakeem 90's
Shaq, Duncan 00's

[Rob]

iverson
kobe
Lebron
wade
nash
kidd
garnett
wilkins
chambers
issel

[Dirn Dargen]

um....you guys forgetting about jordan and bird? and chamberlain?

[cy]

um ... Dirk, the point here is to ADD 10 new players to the 50 Best named by the NBA 10 years ago. In other words, Jordan - check. Bird - check. Wilt - check.