Fallout

Lots of reaction and comment, as expected, out of yesterday's news:

Rich Griffin says fire the manager. Over at the Sun, Bob Elliott says keep him, but the most cogent nugget has to be this priceless quote from A's manager Ken Macha: "That's that type of situation when no one is in touch with reality." (my take: That was nothing. Ken ought to come up here during Leafs season.)

Dave Perkins and Stephen Brunt (reg. required) suggest that this might affect the Jays adversely next season (my take -- This stuff is overrated. Throw enough money in front of free agents and it's amazing how their glasses turn rose-coloured and they start talking about "joining a new family" and "core values" and "this was my first choice all along").

AP FILE PHOTO

Sometimes, you know, it just happens.

The Jays' spin, contained in a Globe news story, that the Lilly-Gibbons confrontation and the Hillenbrand-Gibbons confrontation were "two different situations." (my take -- obviously they are, but isn't that something of a cop-out? Two different situations, yes -- everything in life is about different situations -- but there's one common denominator, a manager going through his first real pressurized situation and reacting by getting physical instead of taking a more measured approach. As commenter Rich said in the blog so well yesterday, "Lilly's job is physical. Gibbons' job is mental. Last night both performed pathetically.")

And oh yeah, the Jays won a game, getting their fourth successive quality start out of A.J. Burnett, surely the teasingest of contemporary major-league pitchers with his combination of stuff -- a humming fastball, and a sharp curve that got him through the middle stages last night -- and trips to the DL.

And thus, how different the world of pro sports is from the one outside. No offence taken, no resulting discipline, no apologies from either side, all because "it happens". What's lacking in just about all this fallout was the sense that here was a situation completely out of control -- as Macha pointed out so neatly -- now being spinned as something that just, you know, happens: A pitcher who refuses to give up the ball, and a manager who chases him down the tunnel to wrestle.

Best piece I've come across ran in the National Post, John Lott and Jeremy Sandler with a neat summation of this fantasyland/realityland divide:

In a conventional workplace, John Gibbons might well be seeking another job today. So might his latest public adversary, Ted Lilly, a man who dared argue with his boss in front of 28,000 people and a national television audience.
But these men do not work in an office tower, where civility is expected -- if not always observed -- when friction flares between supervisor and staffer.
Gibbons, the boss, and Lilly, the employee, are Toronto Blue Jays. They have guaranteed contracts. And they work in professional baseball, where the showdown is a cultural norm.

Comments

[karim]

Gibby has gotta go. He has lost the clubhouse in my opinion. And if the Jays are TRULY looking to resign Vernon Wells and sign more free agents they need to show they are a stable organization. I believe Godfrey will ensure that Gibby and maybe J.P. are gone as well. Why? Because they Jays need to build a contender with PLAYERS that the fans will follow and identify with (who identifies with a boss?!?) My brother went to last nights game and said the ballpark booed Gibby when he went to the mound. It's over for gibby - ProLine oughta have a line on it.

[A.C. Slater]

Has there been any conclusive reporting on what was said in the conversation on the mound? Here's how I saw things go down: Jays up 8-0 with Lilly throwing 2 scoreless innings. He goes 0-2 on the leadoff batter in the 3rd but then winds up walking him after a 10 pitch at-bat. The next batter singles up the middle on a full count. At some point Brad Arnsberg goes out to visit Lilly and probably says something along the lines of: 'Just throw strikes, we're up 8-0 dammit'. This conversation was followed by a double, home run, home run, double, out, single. That was the end of the line for Lilly. To Gibby, it may have seemed like Lilly was showing him up by just grooving fastballs down the middle of the plate. That's why I think Gibby said something insulting/confrontational when he went to the mound. How else can you explain Lilly's reaction? He knew that he was going to be pulled as soon as Gibby left the dugout, so why would he react that way unless his integrity was challenged? I think the conversation went down like this:
Gibby: If you want to be a bleepin' bleep, you can hit the showers.
Lilly: What? Are you serious?
Gibby: I'm tired of messing around. I want to win this game.
Lilly: I'm trying to win this game too.

It's one thing to pull a pitcher from a game, it's quite another thing to insult that pitcher when you take him out and that's exactly what I think Gibbons did. If I were Lilly, I probably would have 'Boomered' the ball down the left field line and waited around in the tunnel for a piece of him too. The manager has a history of being a hothead, the pitcher doesn't. So the whole story of this incident being caused by Lilly's refusal to give up the ball doesn't seem right to me.

[voislav]

The way I see it, Gibbons is not that good of a manager to be kept on after repeated incidents like this. Even some of great managers (Lou Pinella comes to mind) lose it sometimes, frustration gets the best of you. You have to feel for the guy though, he has to manage the most incosistent Blue Jays pitching staff in years. This was the team that was supposed to have 90-95 wins and now they might just barely make 85, despite all the hitting.
Lilly is one of the worst examples of this, he's a .500 pitcher because his brain takes a break every other start. If I was his manager, I would've punched him long time ago, he's getting $3 milion a year to be focused and ready for his 30 starts and then you can't even do that. Yes, Gibbons was wrong to do it, but it's hard not to get frustrated with some of the Jays, especially with management looking for a scapegoat for a disappointing season.

[jeeves]

jeez, they need another manager eh?
How many have they had in the past 10 years? Let's just stick with the manager this time and change the PLAYERS. I'm sick of scapegoating the manager every season.... Jim Fregosi, Carlos Tosca, Buck Martinez, Tim Johnson, JOhn Gibbons. When will people realize that Gibbons' attitude has nothing to do with the performance of this team. Changing the manager again will just raise hopes, and we will all be disappointed because the team doesn't have the talent. A manager is worth very little over the course of the season in wins and losses. Earlier this year, Hillenbrand himself said "this is the best clubhouse I've ever seen." No way does that happen with a bad boss at the top. The boss sets the tone.