NFL in Toronto: Go on, pull the other one

Here we go again with this story.

Not much to say from here, but I did waste spend a couple of hours going over the Star's database back to 1986 (keywords, NFL expansion Toronto) -- 887 stories in all. Whew.

So here it is, your timeline. NFL expansion to Toronto? Is it time for that one again?

Larry and Ted: The latest sequel.

Jan. 1986. NFL commissioner Pete Rozelle says league doesn't intend to expand into Canada and that has nothing to do with the future of the CFL.

Jan. 1987. Rozelle says no international expansion "in my lifetime."

Dec. 1987. Rozelle: "Toronto and Montreal are both great cities, capable of supporting NFL franchises." But he adds there are "five or six" better candidates in the U.S.

Feb. 1988. Montreal group announces a bid for an expansion team.

Jan. 1989. Expansion team price tag estimated at $80 million U.S. (Rozelle).

Feb. 1989. Toronto group (The Sun, Carling-O'Keefe) announces it's been working toward acquiring a franchise since 1986. Paul Godfrey estimates cost of an expansion team at $50-60 million.

March 1989. Cowboys president Tex Schramm preaches respect for the CFL, but as far as the NFL, "Toronto and Montreal could make awfully strong representations."

Late 1989. Price for an expansion franchise estimated at $75-100 million.

Aug. 1990. Commissioner Paul Tagliabue on international expansion: "If you include Canada I think it is obviously realistic in this decade."

Dec. 1990. Cowboys owner Jerry Jones says Toronto is ready for an expansion franchise, "could easily support any sports franchise."

Jan. 1991. Bills owner Ralph Wilson: "A Toronto club wouldn't hurt us. We don't depend on Canada for fans."

Aug. 1993. Browns owner Art Modell: Toronto will have expansion team "sooner rather than later."

Feb. 1994. NFL spokesman says league has no minimum seating requirement for stadiums.

Jan. 1995. Tagliabue on expansion: "Canada and Mexico would certainly be viable candidates."

June 1995. Godfrey pegs cost of expansion franchise at $200 million U.S. Tagliabue says L.A. the priority for a team, but suggests SkyDome smallish football capacity (54,000) is not a problem in Toronto's reckoning. "I think the future involves the quality of a stadium as much as the size."

Aug. 1995. Bills, Cowboys play exhibition game at SkyDome in front of 55,799.

Late 1995. Jacksonville, Carolina get expansion franchises for $140 million U.S. each. Bills owner Wilson: "A team in Toronto would definitely have an effect on our team. We think this is our market."

Nov. 1995. Tagliabue: Further expansion "unlikely until after 2000."

Dec. 1996. Pete Rozelle dies.

Aug. 1998. Bills, Packers play exhibition game in SkyDome in front of official crowd of 53,986, but Star reporters note about 10,000 no-shows out of that number.

March 1998. Cleveland gets expansion franchise, early estimate of franchise fee $350 million.

Sept. 1998. Cleveland group pays $530 million for franchise.

Oct. 1998. At NFL owners meeting, Toronto doesn't make bid for 32nd league franchise. Godfrey: "The NFL will go international and I think the first international city in the league will be Toronto."

Nov. 1998. Tagliabue: "No timetable for expansion" internationally.

Summer 1999. Local report has Bills being acquired by Toronto group for $500 million US and moved to Toronto as part of Wilson estate planning.

Oct. 1999. Houston added as 32nd NFL franchise, expansion fee $700 million.

Jan. 2001. Godfrey: "Whatever it costs, it will be worth more 10 years later. They've never gone down in value."

April 2002. Tagliabue: Toronto not on radar for future expansion.

Feb. 2005. Tagliabue, on whether NFL will expand to Toronto in our lifetimes: "It depends on how long you expect to live." And: "I think it could be very likely that the next franchises in the NFL, beyond 32, are outside the U.S. Toronto would certainly be a candidate."

That's good to know. As Jim Carrey once said, "So there is a chance!" (Then again, Paul Tagliabue is hale and hearty, and Ralph Wilson too.)

Comments

[J-Rich]

Good lord, if Ted ends up owning a chunk of MLSE, being a Toronto sports fan will be like living in Albania under Hoxha - except more expensive.

[David Imrie]

No way! Read the article!

The cost alone will stop it. The NFL demands major tax concessions from its host municipalities. Toronto is past the days of Mike Harris and Mel Lastman, hopefully today's politicians in the area have more sense!

Since when is Toronto a major draw for American fans? The 1992 and 1993 World Series were among the lowest-rated in American television history. OK, die-hard hockey fans down south (there are some) will watch the Leafs, but the Raptors have not been a draw since Vince Carter's early days. As well, think: Montreal Expos, Vancouver Grizzlies, Winnipeg Jets and Quebec Nordiques. All now playing in American cities.

[Chris Fischer]

Why look at the NFL when the CFL is Canadian and better football?

[Daz]

If I hear another Canadian talk about protecting the CFL from an NFL team in Toronto , I'll hang myself. I am 38 years old. I have never seen a healthy CFL in that time nor have I ever been more than mildly interested in seeing a game. I've never heard of any of my friends rushing home to catch the Argos vs Roughriders on TV.

Everyone I know watches the NFL. NOBODY I know watches the CFL. I am tired of hearing what a great game the CFL is, really. I grew up playing the Canadian game and you know what? I like every other kid still DIDN'T dream of playing for the Ticats or Stampeders. We dreamt of playing for the Cowboys or 49ers. Why do certain people seem to want to continue this really tired and nauseating denial, denial and more denial.

This is not a patriotism issue. I am the proudest Canadian I know but it's like a handfull of politically correct sports types want to hold the 5 - 8 million GTA population hostage and try fruitlessly again and again to shove the CFL down our throats.

I now live overseas but the minute Toronto gets an NFL team I am moving back. That's a promise.

[chris]

I love the NFL. I subscribe to NFL Sunday Ticket. I am involved in an NFL pool at work. And yet, I've never lost a wink of sleep wondering if the NFL will ever put a team in Toronto.

It will never happen people because, with television revenues coming exclusively from the U.S. networks, the NFL would actually lose money from putting a team in Toronto, or anywhere else outside of the U.S. borders.

If you want to support the NFL, then drive down to Buffalo and watch the Bills. Or, repeat after me: ARRRRR-GOOOOOS!!!

[Rich]

Why does Toronto so badly want to belong with the "big boys?" It's this kind of culture that causes the occasional decline in attendance at Argos' games. Toronto already has MLB, NBA and NHL (though in the U.S. this sport ranks behind college junior varsity chess in ratings). Add to this, the city has a solid CFL team and an expansion pro soccer team.
What else does it need?
Do these gentlemen with money not see attendance at Rogersville Jays games when the team is not doing very well? What about the Raptors?
Don't expect this city to support a losing NFL team for five or six seasons at $60 per cheap seat and $11 per beer.
If an NFL team comes here and does not succeed within the first three seasons, it will simply die ... of course, it will have killed the Argos in the process.

[Jim]

NFL in Toronto would be great. One of the reasons why the CFL sucks in Toronto is because everyone here knows its an inferior product. We have teams from other major professional leagues, so why not an NFL team, instead we got a B league team in the Argos that nobody cares for. We are a major city, and need major league teams not inferior leagues will never work (see AFL Toronto Phantoms).

[Tommy]

Right on, Jim. Give us the big leagues. No AHL, Junior Hockey, CFL, etc. etc. ANYONE in the CFL would snap up an NFL job in an instant. If that doesn't define a minor league, I don't know what does.

[Mark from Buffalo]

I got no problem with the Toronto Bills. I can still come up from Buffalo and watch them play. And it can be Toronto and its tax dollars bled dry to support the NFL instead of mine

[Randy]

I don't understand Canadians' obsession with America. It's the NATIONAL Football League (not to mention the NATIONAL Basketball Association, NATIONAL Hockey League, and AMERICAN League in Baseball), not the International League. Canada already has a football league, and the last thing America needs to do is export yet another pro sport to Canada. Change your CFL to play like the NFL, and you'll enjoy the game better.

[SW]

I highly disagree with Randy's statement - "Change your CFL to play like the NFL, and you'll enjoy the game better." It has nothing to do with the style of play. Both football leagues have its own merits in terms of rules and I've met various prefering one over the other in that matter. However what the CFL is lacking in two critical areas - feeling of "major league" and the whole hype package.

First of all, I noticed Torontonians are probably the most sensitive ones about having the "best" league in everything. That is why despite Toronto's substantial population, it doesn't draw that well in CFL and any of the hockey minor leagues. Torontonians just do not care about sports products that is perceived to be the best in the media. Saskatchewan and even Montreal just do not sound glorious enough in terms of opponents.

Secondly the CFL is lacking in hype. If you look at the NCAA, sure there is the exciting tournament format, but nobody can argue that the NCAA basketball is a significantly inferior product than the NBA in terms of skills. Yet I do not hear anybody complaining about the NCAA even though I hear how inferior CFL players make the league no fun. I believe it is because of all the hype and the tradition associated with it. The TV and all the media loudly drum up the enthusiasm of these "students-athletes," even non-baksetball people play pools everywhere because everybody else does, and there is definitely something beneficial about having more than 8 teams. In other words, CFL just does not have the media gleam to it, which I suppose also is somewhat related with the first issue.

These issues are just too complicated for my feeble mind to solve, and I don't know how we can revive the CFL, especially in Toronto. This just seems to be the way Torontonians are, and the CFL has too much limitation as a league to please a market like Toronto.

[brad]

hey mark stop reading the toronto star then..go read whatever they have in buffalo...i think yur upset cause if toronto gets a team half the fans at the bills games are canadian and they will all come 2 see our teams play

[David Imrie]

Daz, get a life!

Believe me, the NFL would rather move into Mexico City or Tokyo before moving into Toronto. No Canadian city is even on the NFL radar. It's likely that Ralph Wilson's descendants or anyone else involved in the Buffalo Bills' organization will find some loophole in their lease agreement that will allow them to move. Not to Toronto - Los Angeles for sure; maybe Portland, San Antonio, Tokyo or Mexico City. Forget the market size argument - Toronto and Montreal remain "hoserland" to most Americans. As for arguments about being a "Canadian" team, unlike Baseball and Basketball, four-down football with its wussy "fair catch" rule has no roots in Canada. The Jays draw upon the local southern Ontario market and the summer tourist trade. The NFL is up against hockey and basketball during the fall season - remember that the NHL is well below NASCAR and college sports in terms of U.S. fan recognition, which allows football to thrive down there. Besides, who can travel during the fall and winter months?

Even with all their cash, I doubt Ted and Larry will spend $500 million without some taxpayer support (which won't happen) to buy an NFL franchise. Besides, it's a safe bet that while the current federal government kisses up to the U.S., the Ontario government will repeat the feds' action in 1973 to prevent the one-joke World Football League from setting up shop in T.O.

[Sean]

Please, please, please let the NFL come to Toronto!! We need an actual football team!! The Argos and the rest of the CFL should be declared physically and mentally unfit to watch! I mean come on! There's only one word for what the CFL - BORING!! And the 3 downs thing is whack! What we need is actual professionals playing football here in Toronto, not some joker's league. Bring on Willis McGahee and J.P. Losman!!

[Adam]

What's all this talk of "reviving" the CFL in Toronto? The Argos are drawing 30,000 a game and get pretty decent TV ratings. Just because you don't watch them doesn't mean nobody else does.

That said, I suppose we should all bow down to Daz's expertise on the merits (or lack thereof) of the CFL. How better to prove yourself an authority on something than by acknowledging off the top that you've never actually seen it?

[Rob]

How long will Toronto have to deal with the CFL? I think it's pretty clear that most people in this city will never come around to the league unless they can compete talent for talent with the NFL. I personally don't care if it's "our game" because I want the best.

[Travis]

I have a few issues with some of these posts.

Mexico would get a team before Toronto? Why is that? Because they have 22 million people? That's fabulous, but can they afford NFL ticket prices? You want to talk about exchange rates check out mexico's peso to Canada's dollar (which is at 90 cents American).

Toronto wants the best product? Yeah people here do, who would want an inferior product? The answer is people who know that's all they can settle for. I am sure Toronto would be a big CFL town if they didn't have the MLB or NBA, but the truth is we do and we get to see people like Shaq, Lebron James, Tracy Mcgrady, Chris Bosh and the list goes on. Who does the CFL have with drawing power? No one, Casey Printers was the best player in the CFL and he couldn't even make the Chiefs squad of QBs that were riddled with injuries. Really, if you don't live in Toronto and don't pay taxes it's really none of your Business so butt out.

I have no doubt that an NFL team would be spectacular in this city, but who knows if it will happen, it may or it may not. Either way people will still wait, and I think it's quite clear that the CFL is not going to catch on in this city.

Case in point, in 2004 the Argos won the Grey Cup and for the handful of home games they get they cannot sell out home games, especially with the affordability of the ticket?

The Jays play 80+ home games at the Rogers Centre and are averaging 27,515 and this team has not sniffed the MLB playoffs in 14 years! If the poster above is right and the Argos are averaging 30,000 for a handful of home games that they have coming off of a playoff year and a Grey Cup before, that clearly shows Toronto's interest in the CFL.

[Joe]

"No one, Casey Printers was the best player in the CFL and he couldn't even make the Chiefs squad of QBs that were riddled with injuries" - Rob

Yeah, and Ricky Williams, one of the premier players in the NFL really tore up the CFL????

[Bret]

I don't think I'll ever attend a CFL game, and like the Poster above said me and my friends don't rush home to see the Argos vs Tiger-Cats (possibly one of the worst team names in sports).

I'll sign on the dotted line for some NFL season tickets though!

[Parkdale George]

The lack of interest in the CFL doesn't have anything to do with hype, media, opponents or location. This simple equation will explain things very clearly.

CFL Rules
+ Lesser Skilled Players
= 1 Big Joke

[Chris Fischer]

You CFL haters are weird.

They have their league, we have ours. Let's just leave it at that.

The CFL would have more money if it didn't cater to a market the size of California.

And its still the best football around!

[Parkdale George]

CFL haters? We love the CFL but we can't watch it because there's a down missing. Why not change the CFL into a 4 down football league??

Let's take a moment to analyze my CFL equation.

CFL Rules
3 Down football means first downs are more difficult. 4 down football allows the offence to build momentum and keeps fans high on optimism.

+ Lesser Skilled Players
The CFL is full of excellent football players but even NFL players couldn't shine through the fog of 3 down football.

= 1 Big Joke
As a football fan who refuses to watch the NFL until we (Toronto) get a team, the joke is on me.

[Earl Grey]

Well, from the "NFL only counts" fans I've met over the years, I can understand why they want a 4 down game on a puny sized field - they need the extra down since it takes them a while to realize the ball has changed possession due to their lack of gray matter and the small American field means that they don't have to take in as much information as on a larger field, their eyes don't have to scan as much. And of course the one less player is easier for them as well as 40 seconds to put the ball in play, all these factors allow for the gray-matter challenged to be able to follow the American game better than our game.

[Parkdale George]

RE: “they need the extra down since it takes them a while to realize the ball has changed possession due to their lack of gray matter”
You get one word. Nonsense.

I never said anything about changing the size of the field or taking away a player. Those are precisely the things that will make our game “Our Game”.

If the CFL changes to 4 downs, every stadium will be sold out and it won’t cost anyone anything. To all those who are with me, this is the rallying cry:

“Change it, and we will come! Change it, and we will come!”

But of course we in Toronto can and will support the CFL and the NFL together.

Here’s an open letter to Ted Rogers.

Dear Sir,

We all know that you do plenty for our city and for all that you have done we are grateful, but the word on the street is that you’re bigger than Steinbrenner. How can you give up on the NFL dream over money? Obtaining an NFL team would be regarded as your greatest legacy, the ultimate inheritance to us; your brothers and sisters, sons and daughters. Being forever known as the father of the NFL in Toronto is money well spent.
One way or another we will have our team. From The Danforth to High Park and all the way up to Mel Lastman Square, our collective will is too strong to go unfulfilled. God speed Mr. Godfrey, and the MLSE.
Oh yeah, and, dad, uh, how about 100 million for the Jays. Thanks.

[Chris Fischer]

Every single CFL hater I talk to has never watched a game in their lives. If that doesn't talk about their intelligence, then I don't know what does.

Parkdale_George: The fact that the field is big and receivers get a running start means that first downs are still easy to get even with 3 downs. Four downs would make it excessively boring. We would never see a pass since it would be so easy for people to get first downs in a much safer why.

Why are people so obssessed with Canada being like the US? You want the same customs as them, the same football as them, the same pro leagues as them, you want to be able to relate to them, you want to be recognized by them! Who really cares?

Let's preserve what little national identity we still have left!