Map of the Week: The Star's neighbourhood map (beta version)

TONY BOCK/TORONTO STAR

Shortcut to the map

After the 1998 amalgamation of the six former cities of Metro Toronto came a debate about geography - like many other things, it could be blamed on Mike Harris.

To some, referring to former cities like Etobicoke and Scarborough (especially Scarborough, for some reason) was an anachronism to be avoided. 'Toronto's east end,' once the area of the former City of Toronto east of the Don, was now the entire metropolis east of Yonge St. as far as Pickering. Somewhere there was a 'north end,' but where the east was more north than east was never completely clarified.

This system rarely seemed to be followed to its logical conclusion, locating Queen and Spadina in the ‘south end,’ (or Ward's Island in the 'southmost end') which was probably just as well.

For a time, the Star was influenced by this, banning the mention of Scarborough in crime stories,  although we have also freely referred to former towns in the 905, like Thornhill and Port Credit.

Public Editor Kathy English tackled the issue recently:

This policy is well-intentioned. But the reality is that the Star's newsroom has been inconsistent in applying the policy, leading to charges of unfairness from some Scarborough readers. Other readers are confused by the various ways in which Star writers try to locate crime in Toronto without referring to those historic geographic areas that, while officially dissolved, live on in the hearts and minds of many readers, and indeed, in institutional names like the "Scarborough Hospital."

… Does any ban on using those historic Toronto place names serve readers? If Toronto is indeed a city of neighbourhoods, should we aim to cite those more exact locations? Is Scarborough indeed "east Toronto?" Is Etobicoke "the west end?" While a map of Toronto indicates that, many long-time residents define east Toronto as the eastern reaches of the old City of Toronto. In their minds, east of that is indeed Scarborough.

For those who have forgotten where the six pre-amalgamation cities were, a map is here.

My own view, for what it’s worth, is that there is a limited relationship between communities and municipal governments. Brooklyn, for instance, hasn’t been a city in its own right for more than a century, but I have yet to hear of anybody referring to ‘New York’s mid-south end’. The idea that a recognizable area like East York can never be referred to, like Alsace and Lorraine after 1870 (‘Speak of it never – think of it always’) seems extreme, and doesn’t reflect the way residents think about their city.

But bringing back the pre-1998 cities for style purposes doesn’t solve the problem. The cities of Scarborough and Etobicoke were recognizable chunks of the map, but the borders of the former City of York (at left) were very eccentric. And the former City of Toronto poses its own problems – are we really supposed to spend the next twenty or thirty years referring to ‘the former City of Toronto’?

However, there is a third way – using the city’s rich tradition of neighbourhood names (Swansea, for example, or Agincourt) in a way that everyday urban culture recognizes.

With this in mind, feature writer Kenneth Kidd recently literally went back to the drawing board on the neighbourhood issue, carving up the city into 158 areas with a marker on an enormous laminated map. It’s in beta, and we’re posting an online version this week to find out what you think.

It’s in the nature of a map like this to be fluid and debated. Many trees could be killed, or electrons rearranged, over the Beach(es) alone: the Beach or the Beaches? And where is the northern boundary: Queen, Kingston Road, or as hopeful real estate agents would sometimes have it, the Danforth or points north?

So this week's map is to a large extent about the comment thread, particularly for those of you living in the 416. (A 905 map is planned.)

- If you live in the Toronto megacity, what do you call your neighbourhood?

- If you live in a shape on the map, does the name match the one you would use? If not, what name would you use?

 - If you live in a part of the map not covered by a shape, what would you call your neighbourhood?

The map is here.

Comments

[John]

The University of Toronto St. George Campus is definitely a "neighbourhood".

[Kazoiks]

I second the comment regarding the boundary between High Park and Bloor West Village. I live 2 blocks east of Runnymede and we all claim Bloor West Village as our neighbourhood.

In addition, I find the borders less distinct between BWV and Old Mill (to the west), BWV and Runnymede (to the north, although that's a neighbourhood name I never hear used), and between High Park and The Junction (to the north). Jane Street and Annette Street seem convenient but arbitrary.

[Denise Moore]

I'm not sure how you deal with the fact that there may simultaneously be differing definitions of a neighbourhood's boundaries.

The area where I live is often called Flemingdon Park. The only actual 'Flemingdon Park' is not even really a park, but a hydro field. There are those who consider Flemingdon Park to be only the areas of and immediately adjacent to the public housing project, excluding the condominiums that are east of the Don Valley Parkway. But others include those in Flemingdon Park. As far as the post office is concerned, though, we're in Don Mills. And I do sometimes tell people I'm in Don Mills. Though people who live in the Don Mills Rd / Lawrence neighbourhood would probably say that I'm not really in Don Mills. Surprisingly, I actually heard 680 News refer to a St Dennis Drive location, normally considered part of Flemingdon Park, as in East York. That location never was in the old East York, though an agreement between school boards did allow students there to go to an East York junior high school and East York high school. The area was still officially North York. The post office introduced a policy that allowed people to use their official municipal name at as a postal address, so the area is also called North York, but North York is no longer an official municipality of any kind. The name is still in use though.

Thorncliffe Park might have seemed fairly clearly delineated, but various commercial enterprises prefer to use "Leaside" in names as it is more marketable. So there are the "Leaside Towers" apartment buildings, and "Leaside Park Drive" etc., in what would otherwise have been thought of as Thorncliffe Park. As 'Leaside' is considered more prestigious, probably a number of people in those areas might sometimes say they are in 'Leaside'.

I also recently heard 680 news describe Donlands and the Danforth as East York. Most people would more likely have described that location as the Danforth, or perhaps Greektown, but admittedly East York came ALMOST down to the Danforth.

As for even more confusion, recently I heard 680 News describe Keele St/ Annette St as Parkdale and later as Bloor West. They didn't use 'High Park' or 'the Junction', though more people would perhaps call the area those names.

How one deals with such blurriness, I don't know.

[Audrey]

Tucked into the Hillcrest neighbourhood is a small area called Bracondale -- within an area once called Bracondale/Wychwood.
Bracondale encompasses Hillcrest Drive, Conrad, Frank, Turner & Bracondale Hill Road -- all named for the Turner family that owned the property & laid out the small subdivision
http://www.lostrivers.ca/points/Bracondale.htm

[Terry Repol]

Fabulous map you've done and I am sure that you're getting plenty of comments. I happen to live in the Highland Creek area but looking around the nearby area I noticed that 7 Oaks wasn't listed as a neigbourhood and yet all those around here know the area north of Ellemere, south of the 401 and between the two creek valleys of Highland Creek and whateever is west of that that runs down to join Orton Park as 7 Oaks. No school or anything by that name around but all the sports teams and things like that have been 7 Oaks for 25 or 30 years that I know of.

[Eric D'Souza]

I would consider Leslieville to be bounded by the railway line to the west, Gerrard Street to the north, Lakeshore to the south, and Coxwell Avenue to the east. (The Leslieville Cheese Market at Queen and Logan should be in Leslieville!)

[sandy]

Bloor West Village should overlay several of the pre-existing areas, specifically Swansea south from Bloor St. to Morningside Ave. and west from High Park to the South Kingsway and High Park from Clendenan [per a previous post] west through the indicated BWV to Jane St., north from Bloor St to Annette St.

[Jim Arnold]

I have one quibble with the western boundary of The Beach. The western boundary has always been Woodbine Ave. Much to the chagrin of the current real estate agents who would like the "Beaches" to include everything from Leslie to Warden and from the lake to the Danforth!

Growing up in the Beach in the fifties the area was always defined as being bordered by the lake on the south Victoria Park on the east, Kingston Road on the north and Woodbine Ave in west.

[Janet]

50 Stephanie St. may be next to the wonderful Grange Park, but we call ourselves Chinatown.

[Neil Ross]

Over 2008-2009, West Toronto Junction is celebrating what we call its Quantum Leap Year. On April 14, 1908, the town became a city; on May 1, 1909 it joined Toronto, the only one of the original neighbourhoods to have amalgamated with the larger city rather than being annexed. Over the Centennial years the Junction Historical Society is stressing the historical boundaries of "the little city" and it certainly stretched well beyond what the Star's map suggests. The Junction's electoral district ran down to Bloor -- which is why for many years the north side of that street was "dry" along with the rest of the Junction -- to the railway tracks in the east, to Jane St. in the west and north of St. Clair, encompassing the stockyards. We urge you to reconsider the map and the historical boundaries of the Junction which many residents of this storied village/town/city/neighbourhood still regard in their original and complete configuration.

[Ezra]

Finch/Dufferin/Allen/Sheppard/West Don River is The Bathurst Manor, not just a chunk of "Dublin Heights", Directly south, the neighbourhood up until Wilson is Faywood, however, I believe that that name has been a recent thing.

Perhaps the city of Toronto's own neighbourhoods map may be of some use.
http://www.toronto.ca/demographics/profiles_map_and_index.htm

[Jason]

We live in one of those unmarked areas, north of Bloor, south of Dupont, west of Landsdowne, east of Dundas West. Since moving here I've come to think of it as part of the Junction. Some residents refer to it as the South Junction. My favorite is sub-junction.

[Jim Benzie]

I grew up near Kennedy and St Clair. When we moved there in 1952 we were told that the subdivision we lived in was called the Homelands (Cleta Drive, Hart Avenue, Brenda Cres and adjacent parts of Kennedy road and Danforth Road). The subdivision was built in 1946 for the families of returning soldiers. After many of them moved away, the Homeland name fell out of usage. The Homeland Market on Danforth Road at Linden may still carry the name.

The adjacent neighbourhood was Scarborough Junction (or The Junction to locals) and was much older. It was named for the junction of two railroads (names I have forgotten). There was a train station off Midland Avenue, North of St Clair). It also had a large railroad yard to the east of the station. The local Boy Scout Group was the 1st Scarborough Junction. Scarborough Junction included Linden, Laurel Magnolia and Grainger Avenues and the adjacent portions of Danforth Rd and St Clair. Everest's General store and Commery Lumber were the commercial centre of the Junction with Canada Line Materials as it's largest industry. There were three churches. The remaining one is I think called Scarborough Junction United.

The older people in the Junction, who remembered it rural past, referred to the Homelands as Ephringham's Farm.

Scarborough Junction, the Homelands and other surrounding areas was served by Kennedy Road School (Kennedy Road, South of St Clair). It was replaced by Norman Cook School on Danforth Road in 1950 or 1951.

Feel free to correct any details. They are childhood memories.

[Denise Moore]

Adding some comments on other people's posts:

I have heard of Hillcrest, because of the Hillcrest branch of the library, and the Hillcrest Community Centre. But I have no idea how people in that area might define a "Hillcrest" neighbourhood.

Yes, I think of Graydon Hall as a neighbourhood. Also Mount Dennis. But in both cases I don't think those are known to people across the city.

Is the area around York Mills and the DVP, to be thought of as York Mills, Parkwoods Village, or Brookbanks? All three are possibilities, and I think their post office is a Willowdale one! I personally think of Willowdale as being the area around Yonge St, yet by post office boundaries it goes much farther east, even to Victoria Park Ave!

I've heard of the South Riverdale distinction too.

I've heard the area I'm in, which I call Flemingdon Park or Don Mills, is also called "South Don Mills", but very rarely. There is a TTC Community bus route with that name.

Leslieville, which another reader mentioned, is based I'm told on there having been a village of that name, somewhere in the Carlaw Queen area. But does anyone remember its old boundaries?

[Denise Moore]

Oh, political boundaries are another factor. I've heard the area from Bloor between Yonge and Sherbourne described as South Rosedale. How far south it is supposed to go, I don't know. But the justification for any kind of Rosedale name probably came from it being part of a federal/provincial riding that had Rosedale in the name. (Now just 'Toronto Centre'.) Another reader has considered that part of a big neighbourhood that would also include what many would call the Gay Village. Part, but not all, of that area is also called the St Jamestown neighbourhood - Howard St to Wellesley, Parliament to Sherbourne. South and east of the Gay Village and south of St Jamestown, somewhere down there is Cabbagetown.

[Phil Sokolowski]

Great idea. Remember sections of the city used to be named after phone codes like Melrose, etc? I live on Rockford Rd. just south of Steeles, and would suggest the area be called Ross Lord Park to reflect the largest geographic feature.

[Denise Moore]

I notice on your map you did stop Flemingdon Park at the Don Valley Parkway. But, though some people define it that way, the roads and transit routes ONLY link the condominiums east of the DVP to Flemingdon Park. So, for practical purposes, they ARE part of Flemingdon Park, or what we might call Greater Don Mills.

The area north of Eglinton Ave, to the railroad tracks, east of Don Mills Rd, which you've given no name, is the `Wynford/Concorde' area, though Concorde Place might be thought of as its own neighbourhood or as part of that Wynford/Concorde' area. Again, their post office is Don Mills. In fact, I think it might have been part of the original planned `Don Mills' area, just not a residential part.

East of Leaside is an industrial/commercial area that you have not identified. They do use the name Leaside Business Park for that area, so you should probably include it in Leaside.

Yes, I suppose the south side of Danforth is part of Riverdale, but it is also certainly also part of the Danforth.

[Daniel]

I've never referred to Dublin Heights as that.

Its always been Bathurst Manor to me...

[Brian Peacock]

I grew up and lived on Albertus Avenue from 1946 until the early 1970's, attending John Ross Robertson and Allenby Public schools, and then North Toronto CI. This area is now called Lytton Park, but back then our postal code was Toronto 12 and it was part of 'North Toronto'.

[Pierce Reid]

I'm surprised you didn't identify the Toronto Island (or Ward's Island/Algonquin Island) neighbourhood.

There are quite a number of new homes in what was the north east corner of the Leaside Industrial Area (locate south west of Leslie and Eglinton E), and I would guess those living there consider themselves part of Leaside.

And you could get a step ahead by identifying the "West Donlands" neighbourhood, which doesn't have any people in it yet, but is being designed as a real neighbourhood.

Pierce

[Martin H]

I’m not sure if you are interested in showing the old neighbourhoods, or in today’s neighbourhoods, but I have two comments about neighbourhood history.
1)I have lived on UNO Drive NW of The Queensway and Royal York Road, since 1990. I have heard the area referred to as “The Sand Flats” and also as “The Market Gardens”, never “The Queensway”. Our house is part of war-time housing, built in 1948 for returning veterans. Also, UNO Drive is an acronym for “United Nations Organization”, but few are aware of this.
2)Regarding “Richview”; I grew up in the 60’s near Martingrove Road and The Westway and recall a sign on Martingrove Road that read “Westway Village”as you drove from Dixon Road. I do not recall the area referred to as "Richview", although Eglington Ave West was still called Richview Side Road in the early 60's.
Good luck with your project.

[JJ]

I think that the comment about not having the boundaries go down the middle of main streets is valid. To say that my childhood home was not in "Christie Pits" because it was on the east side of the street does not make sense.perhaps the laneways could be used as boundary lines in the older parts of the city.
Does anyone know where the Seaton Village name came from? My father who was born in 1915 and lived most of his life on Christie Street had never heard it called that until the 1990s. If asked he would have said he lived west of the Annex.

[Cayo]

I live in the BeachES. Not the Beach. :)

[Nigel]

I'm not sure that the "Danforth" as a term extends that far east. People hear Danforth, and think of the Greek village between (say) Jackman and Pape or Jones. I don't think it extends to Woodbine-plus, which would be a different neighbourhood.

[Michele]

I live in Leaside or North and/or South Leaside as it is commonly referred to.
I think that Leaside does extend further east than Laird Drive. In fact that area around Eglinton Ave in the North and Brentcliffe to the east and further east is called Leaside Business Park. I also believe that Leaside Business Park does
extend down to Millwood in the South and again going East untill it hits Overlea Blvd and Thorncliffe Park in the South and East of that area. Looks to be a blank area on your map.
I also wonder that Leaside goes as far north as you mention, but I'm willing to let that go as it wasn't always built on as it is now.