The Green Shift road show

Liberal Leader Stéphane Dion has taken his road show to Ontario today. First stop -- Mississauga. He's managed to get about 200 people out at lunch hour today. It's mainly a friendly crowd, though I'm told, and Dion hinted too, that there are Conservatives in the crowd. If so, they're not hecklers. The questions have been polite so far.

Comments

[Chris Duncan]

Fancy letting 'Conservatives' into the audience to ask questions. One might think this is actually an open debate with criticism permitted. I think the spelling of Dion's plan is wrong as well it should be called 'The Green SHAFT Plan'. As Dion will give all Canadians it if he is ever elected.

[bob ward]

Nice "reporting" susan, very positive article and picture.
Really its the right thing to do, I say go ahead and raise all my taxes, in fact take the whole cheque devise social programs with it and let DION decide what I should get back.

Dion is a great leader and very underestimated

[Cam]

"Shaft"? I don't--- oh wait! It's "Shift" and you made it "Shaft"--- a play on words as it were. Oh really... too droll. Tee hee.

Stewie, "Family Guy"

[Sandi]

Good grief - the CPC partisans are a resentful, hateful lot aren't they?

They cry free speech - but not for Liberals.

I bet most the people making these Chris Duncan type comments haven't even read the plan or gone to a speech and asked questions about it - scary - these people vote.

[Wayne Nagy]

So when does Stephen Harper come to the Mississauga bell-weather and let the Liberals in for the open debate? I ate more than my wieght in egg salad sandwiches at the meeting, more than what Jim Flaherty gave back in his punitive the $3.00 GST rebate. It's we, the entreprenuers, that have to eat and make the final decisions work in the end.

[maggie]

I wonder how many people calling this "the shaft" have read the whole thing and done their tax calculation on the website.

Regardless of who is in power, or whose plan is implemented, fossil fuel prices (and everything else) are going to go up; all three parties have acknowledged that. But at least under Dion's plan, we will get income tax breaks and other breaks to help offset the increases. We're either nudged off oil with tax help from Dion, or we're hit with a runaway train that Harper & Layton refuse to admit is coming (after Harper has poured millions into the oil patch).

It's a highly controversial and emotionally charged issue, and seems like east vs. west, but it really isn't. It's about Canada either getting out in front and developing green technology so we can help ourselves and LEAD the rest of the world, or lagging behind and paying very real consequences not far down the road.

[Phil]

Conservatives in the crowd. I think I'd like to hear someone more credible than Dion make that claim or is this a different Dion than the one that promised he wouldn't bring in a carbon tax during his leadership campaign?
Speaking of discussion, can anyone explain why Liberal Dion is saying it the Green Shift is a plan to help the environment while Liberal MP Boshcoff has said it is a new tax to take money from Alberta to spend in Ontario. The money will go to targeted social programs. I think we all remember what happens when the Liberals run big money programs. The gun registry scam, the adscam, the HRDC boondoggle, the only consistant thing in all of them is money finds it's way back to the LPC.

[Chris Duncan]

Isn't it a shame that if one actually tries to criticise the sainted Dion one is accused of not 'reading the plan' and being a 'hateful ,resentful lot'. I am sorry but being in my senior years and having lived under many Liberal 'Plans' I know how this Green Shaft plan will work out as well. We all remember the $2 million price tag the Liberals put on their Gun Registry plan(the actual cost is 1000x the original estimate). Or the 'famous' National Energy Plan that was a disaster and ended up being scrapped. How about the Liberal's HRDC fiasco?
While Liberal partisan newspapers and bloggers play up the income tax rebate we can all expect, they fail to be truthful, as does the Liberal Green Shaft plan, about the actual cost to the consumer. I hope the next election will bring out all the falsehoods the Liberals are trying to present under their plan. The fact is that petroleum and gas based products go far beyond just the heating, lighting, cooling and cooking costs we are told in many articles. The spike in inflation in virtually every type of merchandise and service we buy which will be brought about by this plan has not been fully disclosed. The true costs have been carefully brushed under the carpet.
Time to have a truly honest assessment of costs by all involved.
If any of you also think this plan will be 'revenue neutral' I have a bridge in Brooklyn I can sell you ..cheap.

[Chris Duncan]

Just calculated my wife's and my combined tax rebate under 'the plan' at a whopping $274 per year! According to the plan I will only have pay $270 in increased costs annually. I actually make $4!!! a year profit on this plan. Wow, now that is a great reason to vote for the Liberals if every I heard one. Can anyone here explain to me where the total $270 increased cost calculation stated in the Green Shift brochure came from? How many energy costs were included in the calculation? How many petroleum based merchandise and service costs per household were included? This 'little' aspect of the plan was not disclosed in any detail in the Liberal Plan brochure at all. It is obvious I must have just missed the actual page where the annual cost calculation per household was explained. Please advise...anyone????
Perhaps we just have to take this total cost per household calculation on 'faith' from the Liberals the same way we took the original cost estimate of the gun registry plan on 'faith'.
Also if you actually look at the plan there is a $400million tax surplus calculated already at the $30 per ton tax level. The Liberals plan to hike the tax to $40 per ton over 4 years. Revenue neutral my foot!!
There is no actual calculator on the web site for your costs under the plan only what you get as a rebate. It therefore only tells half the story. Blind faith just doesn't cut it with me I need honest facts. Scary how some people vote on blind faith!!

[Sandi]

Chris Duncan - it's not a profit making plan but it proves that it won't hurt you financially - too hard to understand? Seems so.

Duh.

[Chris Duncan]

You just don't understand Sandi. Perhaps you just haven't been around long enough to experience the many previous 'plans' of the Liberals. You miss the point entirely. The annual 'cost' the Liberals are so keen to quote of $270 per 'average' household is not explained in detail. Any party who can quote a $2 million cost for a 'plan' (Gun Registry)that ends up costing 1000x as much doesn't give me much confidence that their '$270' price tag for the cost per 'average household' is very accurate. If I was a Liberal trying to sell this phony tax scheme I would low-ball the cost myself. Once elected you can always put the blame on adding machine errors. How many industries are reliant on petroleum? ....nearly all of them. Either in energy costs or components of their manufacturing process...plastics for instance. Just look at the wrap on most grocery items you purchase...you guessed it..plastic. Those higher 'hidden' manufacturing costs will come out of your pocket. Transportation of groceries or any manufactured item, believe it or not, are either done by truck or train... both of which use diesel oil which is not tax exempt under this phony scheme. Those higher costs come out of your pocket. That $270 price-tag is as phony as the Green Shift tax plan. We can only hope Dion does not get a chance to prove me right.

[Platty]

"I bet most the people making these Chris Duncan type comments haven't even read the plan or gone to a speech and asked questions about it - scary - these people vote."

Well, let me tell ya there Cam, I have asked every supporter of this "plan" that I can find about how this will reduce GHG emissions , INCLUDING DION, and all I got was the deer in the headlights. I was told that there really was no way of telling what the reduction would be, or if there would be any reductions!!! I also asked what the cost would be to administer the plan, cue the crickets Cam, cause I got the same answer to that one.

"Good grief - the CPC partisans are a resentful, hateful lot aren't they?"

No Cam, we just don't give our hard earned money away without asking a few questions first...

===

[Robert]

I would suggest Dion and his Liberals are in big trouble. Perhaps a year or so ago this carbon tax plan might have went over but now that the economy has tanked out? Even if one considered it a right message which I seriously question that if one is even allowed to have a fair and open debate on the subject it definately is a certain type of message which is horribly out of its time. Isn't it really true that the Liberals missed their chance to do something about the enviroment during all the Chretian and Martin years ? Where were they then....one thing for certain if Dion doesn't cause an election to take place this fall he's toast for sure....the very hesitation of such will show he's admmitting he does not have the backing of the Canadian people.....can't say i'll vote for Dion but full steam ahead. I would contend politically speaking he's heading for a ice burg though.

[hollinm]

Boschoff clearly let the cat out of the bag. This is a wealth transfer from the West to Eastern Canada in an attempt to buy votes and this is how it will be seen in the West including Vancouver which is experiencing its own gasoline carbon tax.
Martha Hall Finley also suggested the Libs have no idea whether
GHGs will be reduced under the Dion plan. What's the point then?
The fact is this is another big ticket social program wrapped in Green trying to fool all Canadians and I do mean all Canadians.
The cost of virtually every product and service consumed will increase and the tax calculator on the Liberal website does not disclose how much those costs will be. I would suspect that when the full effect of the $40 per tonne carbon tax is implemented the middle class will be in the poor house but those Canadians deigned to be supported by the Liberal party will sure be happy.
The good thing is that Dion will never be elected prime minister for this and oh so many other reasons.
The Libs should continue to drink the Liberal kool-aid but right thinking Canadians have made their assessment of Dion and he will not like their decision in the next election.

[Imethisguy]

"Martha Hall Finley also suggested the Libs have no idea whether
GHGs will be reduced under the Dion plan."

Not only do they have no idea if there will be a decrease in GHGs, the revenue figures given assume that there will be _no_ decrease in fuel use. They are _counting_ on there being no decrease to pay for their pet projects and to buy votes. How cynical.

[Andy]

No, hollinm, Mr. Dion has made it perfectly clear what he intends to do -- create an incentive to move to less carbon-emitting products -- but he hasn't made his plans and goals concrete. A true Liberal, he's leaving himself loopholes so that, if it really comes down to it, this "Green Shift" won't be implemented the way we think it will, nor will it have the effect we think it might. Sadly, the media are still in love with Dion and are giving him and his half-baked notion a free ride.

In reality, this tax shift isn't so much an anti-Albertan cash grab, as the "git off mah proper-tay" lobby would have you think, but is instead an ill-conceived grab at the environmentalist vote. The environment is the "in thing" in politics right now, so leave it to the Liberals to pander to the masses in the name of power. This plan, and the vast hoopla surrounding its release, are being carefully orchestrated to distract Canadians from Dion's myriad (and fatal) flaws -- and the media are actively aiding and abetting the process.

The "Green Shift" isn't necessarily a bad thing ... but the way it's being pushed through without any serious examination IS.

[Don Wells]

Dion has asked for an extension from Elections Canada for the repayment of the $250,000.00 he still owes from his leadership race. The Liberal Party is broke---people will vote for the Liberals expecting something from them, but they won't contribute to the Liberal Party! An interesting and disturbing view of Dion's ability to manage his and the Liberal Party's finances.

Doesn't instill a lot of confidence in his ability to manage the country's finances

[Tristan Yockell]

A liberal Candidate Bob Friesen has just openly admitted nationaly that their proposed Carbon tax will not Reduce emissions!.

Check it out here: http://www.winnipegsun.com/News/Manitoba/2008/10/10/7038881-sun.html