Of trades and talks and a glorious baseball victory

Wow, so much for a slow day, eh? Bryan gives us a bit of news, two big deals and, yes, the Yankees win!!!!!!

Red-letter day all around.

And just sets us up for a big one today, too, although I imagine it’ll be quiet on the Raptors front. Every indication yesterday was that they have nothing going for an extra pick, no desire to move up and will remain at No. 9. But, as we all know, things can change in a hurry and as soon as I get back from having the chiropractor try to get this wonky spine in order, it’ll be time to hit the phones and see what’s up.

Til then …

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AP FILE PHOTO

Raps took a second look at DeMar DeRozan.

The news that they had two guys back for second visits – well, Johnson was in yesterday, I hear Holiday may not be in until today – was somewhat eyebrow-raising, no?

It’s not entirely unusual, plenty of teams have guys in for second looks that are more about meetings and chats than actual work on the court, but it does send a little bit of a signal.

So, too, then will this news:

They did have a second session with DeRozan, too, I was told. Not here – they had to travel to see him – but they did get a look outside of the one they had at the Air Canada Centre last week.

What’s it all mean?

Well, reading the tea leaves after a handful of conversations, I think if some held a gun to my head and told me I had to rank the Gang of Five, it would look like this:

Holiday

DeRozan

Johnson

Flynn

Henderson

There’d be a big gap between Johnson and Flynn and I think it wouldn’t be out of the realm of possibility to flop DeRozan and Johnson, either. Let’s say they’re tied.

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We’re all about firsts here in this little corner of the interweb, aren’t we? First with news, first with snark, first with a whole bunch of things.

Well, how about a first link to a Maclean’s piece? This one is very, very good and should be read by all. Of particular interest would be the part where he talks about team play and team success being the true measure of a champion.

Kids who play baseball or soccer or even the pucks need to read that and digest it; their parents and coaches need to read it and take it to heart.

End of sermon.

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Man, Sam’s gonna love coaching those kids in Minnesota, isn’t he?

(That’s if it happens and I hope it does).

But here’s the question in light of this reported transaction:

If the Timberwolves do indeed keep the Nos. 5 and 6 picks, who do they take with each?

Not because of talent, but because of payday. The fifth pick’s salary is about $3 million next year, about $400,000 or so more than the money they’ll have to pay No. 6 under the rookie salary scale.

How do you decide who to reward?

It was suggested to me by a rather smart soul last night that you pay the guy who like the best the least, taking him at No. 6 and taking more of a “project” at No. 5.

Why?

Easy. When it comes time to make qualifying offers in a few years, you could be getting a better player cheaper.

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Oh yeah, another mock draft tomorrow morning, okay?

And here’s the schedule for these parts the rest of the week.

After a meeting of some of the great minds of The Star (that’d be Spencer and I sitting around at my desk for 10 minutes yesterday morning) we’ve come up with this: A live bloggy thingy tomorrow night from about 7 through the lottery portion of the draft (I’m going to go write after that for the web and then the paper) and then one of those live chats on Friday, sometime around noon, to digest the whole shebang. Not sure of that time exactly because it’ll depend on when the draft pick’s going to do a media session but we’re shooting for right around lunch.

Now, you can relax and plan your next couple of days.

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Right, the trade.

The Milwaukee-San Antonio-Detroit trade, that is.

If I had to declare a winner, it’s probably San Antonio although they gutted their front court and unless Matt Bonner all of a sudden becomes a dominant rebounder or they have someone in mind as a free agent or draft pick, they are uber-thin up front.

Jefferson’s insurance if Manu stays hurt and maybe now they even look more seriously at moving Ginobili, although I’d be surprised at that.

Milwaukee’s now got some money in the future to pay Charlie or Ramon Sessions this summer and Detroit gets more savings to make a run at either Ben Gordon or Drew Gooden or both.

Of note to Toronto:

The Spurs are now not likely to be players – because of money – in the Chris Bosh sweepstakes next summer which is sort of big because I always thought the Spurs would have been a good fit if Bosh wants to leave.

And we don’t know that he does so don’t get all crazy on me.

Oh, and why didn’t the Raptors “get” Richard Jefferson? Simple. They didn’t have enough expiring contracts to make up his salary. Was never a chance, was never going to happen, it’s not worth thinking about.

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My man Tom, a frequent contributor here, wonders this yesterday:

Q: What is the upside of showing your cards before the draft. While most media/GMs/fans would have a very good guess at this list, what’s the upside of communicating it publicly?”

A: No question there’s a level of misdirection in some comments. Teams might talk up a guy they sort of like knowing a team right above them is on the fence about him, hoping the other team takes him so the guy the first team really, really likes falls a notch.

But it’s also to send a message to agents and players that, yeah, there is some legitimate interest so they can go to other teams coveting them and say, ‘hey, all things considered, I’d rather go to Toronto so if you don’t want an unhappy camper, leave me alone.”

And some of it’s just common sense.

Everyone and their brother could discern which five guys would be on a Raptors list, for instance. Bryan didn’t break and big news by giving us those names.

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Hey, How ‘Bout Them Yankees! Not, the sorry lot that was shut out again by Atlanta last night, the Mighty Yankees of the Mississauga North peewee house league, who recorded another impressive victory last night.

Think we had like 21 runs in six innings of work.

As my Hitting Consultant M. Nori mentioned the other night, it’s all about squishing bugs and hitting line drives up the middle.

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Comments

[maksimus23]

maybe u can call me a jurk but if u say that the draft is not deep enough to go for a second first rounder does that mean that players like lawson,mills,casspi,hansbrough or meeks can't help the raptors for next season or down the road ?let say i'm a GM for oneday i would trade anything that can value the 18 th of minnesota to pick one of jennings(if he falls & he will)or patrick mills who (mark my words)will be a better starter than calderon.the guy has a lot of upside & stoop up against the US squad in the olympics like few veterans did.MILLS is the steal of the draft & has more upside than the likes of holiday or flynn or that(alraedy bust)thabeet.

[dean]

Everyone should stop with their wish lists and accept that this trade would be awesome for the Raps, regardless of whom they draft:

Bosh, and a second round pick to Minnesota for Al Jefferson and either the #5 or # 6( with fillers if needed)

This deal would be the best option out there to replace Bosh with a stud who is far far cheaper for 4 more years than Bosh will be for 6 more.

If BC does not pull the trigger on Draft Day for at least one trade, I'll start to wonder if we aren't better served with a new GM.

If anyone can think of a better way to secure a PF in place of Bosh before next summer, please post it........... Al would be an All Star in the East and Bosh would not be in the West.

[Jeff Steele]

Hey Doug would you agree with Kevin McHale when he said the Wolves management were making a big mistake a week ago before McHale was "dismissed"? (Regarding the blockbuster that went down yesterday I'm assuming he was opposed to)

I'm pumped about Rubio's potential star power but Foye and Miller were an awful lot to part with and now they are likely headed back to the lottery with a roster full of rookies in the Western conference just after they were starting to gain momentum at the end of last season...

Blogger's note: I thought McHale did a pretty good job coaching and should have another shot

[T i]

@masimus23: i'd much rather have a guy like Maynor than Patrick Mills lmao... and no I don't think Mills will be better than Calderon. I think you extremely undervalue how good Calderon is when healthy. Mills isn't even projected to go in the first round.

[Kelsie]

Although we all have our preferences for whom the Rap's should pick I'm seeing alot of 'knocks' and negative commentary on Holliday. Now although I like Johnson if we pick Holliday I hope the 'critics' and naysayers hold off until we've seen him play a little bit at the pro level and give him a fair chance to contribute (if they pick him).

Remember the kid was a very high ranked McDonalds All-American and played 1 year at UCLA at an unfamiliar position. Collison was playing the 1 so he wasn't going to get to play there and had to learn to play the 2 on the fly. His stats in college are not reflective of his ability. He can penetrate, heady player, and is a ball hawk (and we all know our problems defending perimter players, 1's 2's or 3's) and probably will develop even more once he gets more comfortable in the NBA.

Ideally I think everyone wants a 2 or 3 that can start right away but what if Holliday is just plain better than the other guys we have to choose from? In that scenario I will take him and hope he can perform well next year as a backup 1 and get more comfortable playing off the ball as a 2 when required to do so.

Let's get the best player we can get cause we have numerous holes in the roster and need more talent in many areas regardless.

[Mike P.]

if this was straight out of highschool, derozan would be the third pick in the draft based solely on potential. we can't pass that up if he is there @9. i think if terrence williams, lawson or teague falls somewhere in the late teens/early 20's, BC has to make that move.

Barg/Bosh/Hump/Evans/Obryant
Marion/Delfino/Derozan/Parker
Caldy/Roko/2nd first round pick/banks

keep the mid level for next year

i don't know how good that team is, but we got young guys again, which is always exciting.

[Lorie]

Thanks for the link to the Q&A with the great Bill Russell. Lots and lots of wisdom contained within this interview (even outside the realm of sports!), but one thing in particular caught my attention, and that was how Mr. Russell reacted to being cut from his junior varsity team. He did not stop playing the game he loved. He worked on it. Simple stuff, but I have seen too many parents over the years, after their kids had been cut from whatever AAA, Elite or school team they were trying for, encourage them to quit, if not outright remove them immediately from the sport so as to help them avoid further "disappointment"...(and whose "disappointment" are we really talking about here?) and quickly shift them over to another activity where they might experience more "success", rather than letting the kids just try harder, or perhaps even continue to play the game they love at whatever level their own abilities will allow, for the sheer fun of it.

[doug]

just back from being out of the country for a month.....missed a Kapono trade, nothing much there but I like Evans toughness he brings....draft tomorrow is what it is in my opinion, lets talk about it 3 years from now, as anyone who knows exactly how any of these guys will produce as pros (Griffin included) is talking out there butt...plus these GM's play shell games, they call in guys for second looks, an ignore another guy, leaving teams wondering are they bluffing or not, or talk of one guy when in fact the guy they seek they never even have on their radar, best poker player wins.....but what I do know or feel is this, is that there is no way in Hades the Wolves are going to keep 4 first-rounders, their doing another move...but all that being said i like either DeRozan, lot of pure talent, or Henderson just a smart, well coached player, could be like a Battier in terms of work effort, attitude..

[City Country]

Hey Doug, talking about the Spurs' front court, I wonder if you'd thought about Splitter and the role he might have over in the nba on the Spurs?

I've seem him a couple of euroleague games and looks interesting.

Blogger's note: Another possibility.

[Stew]

Doug, can you compare Johnson to Joey Graham? Would he be much of an upgrade over Joey? Unless he is a significant upgrade, I would prefer the raps take Holiday or DeRozan, or even Henderson.

Blogger's note: Probably a better shooter and ball-handler than Joey. And as I've mentioned, I believe their rankings -- from talking to people all around here and the league -- are Holiday, Johnson and DeRozan but there's a debate between Johnson and DeRozan that won't end until it's time to make a pick

[Brian]

If I'm Minny, I keep the #5 and #6. If they take Harden and Curry with these two picks, what a great time it would be to be a Twin Cities resident. Two exciting young players developing together. Regarding the second 1st round choice for the Raps, I really think they can get a good role player at SF or PG with this choice in the final several picks. I also hope they grab one of Portlands four 2nd rounders. No way Portland hangs on to all four. I would love to have a chance at Danny Green with a late 1st/early 2nd pick.

[Tim W.]

Kelsie,

I think most of the criticism of Holiday stems from the fact that he struggled to play SG in college, which is what he'll have to play a lot of for the Raptors if they draft him. That wouldn't help the team, which is what this draft needs to do.

I mentioned it in an earlier post, but with only 13 (or so) minutes available at backup PG, how many minutes can Holiday really play at SG without hurting the team? I can't see any more than 10. And do you really want your 9th pick in the draft to be so limited in the minutes he can play? You don't draft a backup with the 9th pick, in my opinion. Not when there are so many more pressing needs. An improved Ukic and re-signed Parker should be fine to back up Calderon.

And I really don't think Holiday is going to be any better a pro than DeRozan, although it's incredibly hard to tell from the college season he had. And I also don't see how you can gauge how successful a PG will be in the NBA through workouts. You need to watch them in games.

[Steve]

With the lack of depth up front in San Anotonio and the Raps getting Evans, do you think it now opens the door a bit wider for Rasho to go back there?

Blogger's note: I suppose that's a possibility, yeah.

[Steve]

Also of note for people complaining about not buying a 2nd pick. Why would he spend 3 mil or so for a pick when he doesn't even know if the player he likes was still there.

If he was going to buy a pick don't you think he is better off waiting until draft night and see how things pan out?

[Phil]

Okay, relax people, Holiday is going to be off the board by the time we pick anyways.

Thanks for answering my quesiton yesterday Doug. I have another one for you.

Do you have any idea if the Raptors like Harden? I realize the expectation is that he will be gone, but i mean there is a chance he will slide. If he isn't picked by number 3, most of the teams 4-8 need a PG, and they all seem to be REALLY high on Evans. If Harden is there at 9 do you think he's coming to Toronto?

Blogger's note: They like Harden, yeah; but they cannot envision a scenario in which he's there at No. 9. He'd be virtually impossible to pass on if he's available.

[scott]

I'm starting to think as well that Holiday is a smokescreen.

The thing is Bryan has pretty much nailed 7 of the 8 picks before him (Griffin, Rubio, Thabeet, Harden, Evans, Curry and he said the Knicks would take Hill if he fell). But he needs one more player to be taken so that he can get his guy. I'm not sure why he would be tipping his hand like this unless he is really content with Holiday OR DeRozan, whichever one falls to him.

There is still the possibility that the 8 picks before him are Griffin, Rubio, Thabeet, Harden, Evans, Curry, Holiday AND DeRozan, in which case it looks like it'd be a shoe-in for him to take Johnson since Hill hasen't worked out for the Raptors. If that happens I think they should trade down so that someone else can grab Hill or Flynn at 9 and the Raptors can get their man Johnson closer to his projected spot of the 14-18 range.

[Mark]

Please for the love of god have them pick Derozen or Johnson!

Holiday was underwelming at best and Flynn is at best 7th or 8th best PG in the draft. Roko is just as good as either of them IMO and we'll gain nothing by taking one of these guys.

Henderson is also nothing special. He didn't shoot a great percentage and was very poor against Villanova. His athleticism is also very overrated IMO. But, at least he plays a position the Raptors are thin at. However, I think we could get just as good a SG with a pick in the early 20s.

[b]

I'm pretty sure it's either DeRozan or Johnson. I personally like DeRozan over Johnson because he can play the 2, and Johnson played the 4 in college. I know Johnson is nothing like Joey, but after witnessing the craziness that was Joey Graham, I would be afraid if they drafted another undersized 4 to transition to the 2/3 again. He seems REALLY bulky for a 3, but he also looks really athletic and smooth in transition. But then again...so was Joey.

[Tim W.]

I just realized that if Minnesota keeps their picks, they could take Evans and Curry, two guards who would compliment each other very well. Both can score, handle the ball and pass. Curry is more a shooter and Evans is more a slasher.

While giving up Foye and Miller is a lot to get the 5th pick, Foye is a tweener guard who doesn't pass well enough for PG and doesn't shoot well enough for SG. Miller would probably be more valuable to a playoff team with more talent than Minnesota has.

I think Minnesota has made themselves, at the very least, a team to watch next season.

[N]

Maybe Colangelo is still thinking about Suns East. I can totally see Jrue playing the Barbosa role, though Jrue will need to work on his shot a bit more. I really hope the Raptors can pull a trade. Apparently Darko may be heading to the Knicks for Q Rich. Colangelo needs to work harder.

[doug]

no one can judge Holidays ability on his seasons play really as they had Collision there so Holiday was not in his natural spot I would not write him off....will he be a HOF no but as far as his natural ability he's a question mark just due to how he was used..

[Mike]

Hey Doug,

On list from what you would choose from 1-5 who should the Raptors go for and keep in mine they will get the minutes because the Raptors have no WINGS!
-Micheal Redd
-Jamal Crawford
-Taysun Prince
-John Salmons
-Shawn Marion

I hope you respond to this question!!!!
Thanks!

GREAT BLOG!!!!!

Blogger's note: Sorry, don't play those kinds of games.

[Dan W]

I watched some of the highlights on youtube for JOhnson and Derozan. Derozan has some Carter like dunks but Johnson seemed to have a pretty good handle and more of a balanced game. Holiday wouldn't be a bad pick either. He's supposed to be a good defender and when he is on the court with Calderon I assume Calderon would play the two because of his shooting. I agree with the one poster that Henderson could be a pretty good role player.

[Kelsie]

Tim W

I always value your opinions,

That being said, to me it's an issue of helping the team like the Russell article Doug pointed out to us, not necessarily who fits into categories or a specific position better than another player. If we draft Johnson or DeRozan based on position (lack of 2's and 3's on the roster)and they don't pan out to be much or don't develop into what we expected what did we accomplish?

I cannot say how many minutes Holiday will receive cause thats up to Jay, but I would imagine he would get some burn at the 1 and at the 2. He has only played 1 year at the 2 and he was obviously too talented to keep on the bench so Howland played him there, essentially out of position. How do we know that he won't get better after having played there for 1 year and knows what to expect? What if he were to become our best perimeter defender (which shouldn't be too difficult)? What if he shows over the next few years that he's a better player than Calderon? I like Jose but I've been waiting for his replacement for awhile now due to his lack of defence (c'mon Roko, develop quickly buddy,lol).

I don't expect any of these guys to come in and be a saviour, only a contributor and help us where we are weak. I believe if they draft him he can help us create better off the dribble and defend multiple positions. You're right, ideally you don't draft a back-up with the 9th pick, however you do draft the best player available when it comes time for you to pick. The last time we drafted based on a specific need we got Araujo.

As for Holiday vs. DeRozan how do you know that Holiday won't end up being a better player? I've seen them both play as well and although Derozan is more athletic and has a better mid-range game in my opinion, he doesn't have anywhere near the handles a starting 2 guard in this league should have. Holiday is less athletic but is a headier player, better defender and can create better than DeRozan at this stage in their development.

I agree that we cannot tell yet what happens to both of these guys and the players they develop into. I'm just hoping BC drafts the guy that best addresses the needs of this team and not get soley caught up in positions.

All that being said I still prefer Johsnon over those other guys, but I won't be up in arms if they draft Holiday, or Derozan for that matter.

[Tim W.]

Mark: "Henderson is also nothing special. He didn't shoot a great percentage and was very poor against Villanova. His athleticism is also very overrated IMO. But, at least he plays a position the Raptors are thin at. However, I think we could get just as good a SG with a pick in the early 20s."

Henderson is a better shooter than DeRozan, and he's got a very high basketball IQ, which is something you should never underestimate. He's the best defender of the bunch and probably has the least bust potential of any of the guys Colangelo mentioned.

As for Johnson, I'd be leery of any guy with as much talent as he has who is also been so inconsistent. He also doesn't have a high basketball IQ and is considered overweight. How does a guy train for the NBA draft and still be overweight? I don't understand that. If the draft doesn't motivate him enough to get in shape, what will?