G.O.A.T.? What if there isn't one?

Slow day, a paucity of news so we’ll be shorter – and a bit later – than usual while I get ready for the Black Stars at 10.

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So, Kobe?

Lots of questions around the ether on where he stands now that he’s got his five rings in a decade and is, in my opinion, the best player in the game today.

But what about all time?

Where is he vis-à-vis Michael Jordan seems to be the big question out there now and it such a matter of personal preference there is no answer, only opinions.

And I will say this: As a pure player of the game, that’s shooting and defending and passing and rebounding and leading his team, I will say he is as good, if not better, that Jordan ever was.

No, there are not as many electrifying dunks but Jordan’s jump shot is not comparable to Bryant’s. And in a pure personal opinion, I say Bryant does as many things as well on the court than Michael ever did.

But here’s where it gets sticky when you’re talking about where players fit in history and underscores the unfairness of the whole idea.

Jordan never lost an NBA Finals and has one more ring than Bryant, who has lost a championship series twice.

Both played alongside some great players – Shaq, Pippen, Gasol – and both played along some regular players -- Odom, Kerr, Artest, Rodman.

Jordan changed the dynamic of the game, though, made it a worldwide phenomenon, just as Magic and Larry changed the very way the game was played as big men with sublime passing skills.

Bryant? He’s carried the torch rather than lit it, he is on the continuum that includes Oscar Robertson, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Magic and Larry.

I guess what I’m getting at is that it’s really apples and oranges and eras are eras and neither the twain shall meet.

It is fun to sit around and chatter about who is the greatest of all time and how it is determined.

To me?

I think right now the answer is there is no greatest of all time, there are great players from every era that we should celebrate in the moment for the skills they have and the joy they bring to fans who watch them.

One cannot be judged as “better” than another because circumstances are different every time, teammates are different, the game is different, the challenges of playing are different.

Kobe Bryant is a great, great basketball player, the best on the planet today; LeBron James is a great, great basketball player. So, too, were Jordan and Johnson and Bird and Robertson and Russell, Chamberlain and Jabbar.

We can’t compare and we shouldn’t.

We should just revel in what we have, remember what we had and appreciate that greatness comes in so many different forms.

There is no Greatest Of All Time.

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The Raptors? Well, the word I got from people who took in the entirety of Friday’s two free-agent sessions (I caught the final few minutes of the morning session, hardly long enough to gather an informed opinion) is that no one really stood out.

Maybe after today they’ll find the requisite bodies to fill out the summer league roster but the suggestion I was getting was that there really wasn’t anyone in one day who did enough to turn an awful lot of heads.

But, because I am an intrepid reporter, there are some good stories to tell and I’ll get to tell one in a piece I’ll work on after the Black Stars game.

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Hey, how about that ref in the Slovenia-USA World Cup game?

Think the fix was in?

When I was at the Raptors thing and was told the plucky Slovenes were up 2-0, I sent a note off to Rasho wondering if it was the greatest day in Slovenian football history.

By the time I got out and back home to do the question and answer thingy, it was 2-2 and no wonder I never heard back.

Big day in the football, though, wasn’t it?

Heard my first horns honking out here in the streets of Mississauga after the Serbia shocker over Germany and lived the USA angst with a couple of buddies over e-mail.

But the coolest part was sitting on the stool working and watching England-Algeria and watching the Three Lions flame out. Now, being of Old Blighty Blood, I took umbrage at the boring, somewhat disgraceful performance of the lads and, I have to tell you, if I see one more shot of Fabio Capello all natty and angst-filled, I may throw something at the TV.

It’s all well and good to be emotional but it’d be all better if he got the boys to go forward a wee bit.

Anyway, I’d kind of forgotten how much I really love the World Cup and the emotion and passion it evokes.

Listening to handful of Algerian fans cheer wildly, seeing a group of Brits sullen and dejected and hearing those horns honk was neat.

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Mail? Got quite a bit but there’s lots of duplication and room for some more so click here and we’ll see what we can get to this afternoon and this evening.

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Action: Story breaks somewhere that the Cleveland Cavaliers have called the Raptors about a Bosh sign-and-trade.

Reaction: Duh! Look, every team is going to make a call, if they don’t they aren’t doing their jobs.

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Okay, there’s a kitchen to clean, some grass to cut and a deck to sweep as well as a Ghana game to watch and a couple of stories to write.

You all have a fun day, too.

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Comments

[Ryan M. in Ottawa]

I might be wrong but I think MJ only has one more ring than Kobe now (3 with Shaq and these back to back for 5 - MJ with 6?)

Blogger's note: No, you're right. Got it fixed, thanks.

[Blake Kennedy]

Kobe? Not a better rebounder than Jordan. Kobe has averaged grabbing 3.7% of the offensive rebounds available to him, 12.6% of the defensive rebounds and 8.2% of the total rebounds available to him in his career; Jordan averaged 4.8% ORB%, 13.8 DRB%, 9.3 TRB%. Kobe is definitively a poorer rebounder than Jordan. Kobe is much less efficient offensively than Jordan was: he spent less time at the line, shoot more poorly from the floor, assisted his teammates less, and turned the ball over more than Jordan. The only thing that Kobe does better than Jordan is shoot from deep: that's it. In every other regard, Michael Jordan is the superior player. In every defensive measure - both individual and for the teams that both players played for - Michael Jordan was a much better defender. And not by a little, either.

Further, Kobe's first three championships he spent as Shaq's second banana in a weaker, post-lockout era. Michael Jordan won all his championships as the undisputed #1 guy on his team that had nowhere near the interior presence that Kobe has had in Shaq, and now Bynum and Gasol. And, unlike Kobe, Michael Jordan never put his team in danger of losing a deciding game with horrendous individual play like Kobe did in game 7.

I know you don't like advanced stats, but at some point they communicate something and when they all align to tell the same story - that Kobe Bryant at his absolute best was about as good as Michael Jordan was in a very average year for him - it needs to be heeded.

Oh, and Bryant's performance has traditionally dipped significantly from regular season to playoffs, where Jordan's usually either held steady or got better. That has to mean something, too. And I think that reflects Jordan's far greater understanding of the game and superior mental approach to Bryant's. That might have been different had Kobe not spent his first x amount of years in the league worrying more about his PPG average than how many championships he won, but there you have it.

[Avinash]

Wonderful blog Doug. Who do you think has been the best GM of our Raps thus far, and by extension, do you have an opinion on the best GM out there - past and/or present?

[BC]

Jordan and Kobe are not comparable.

MJ dominated every finals he was in vs. Kobe who has only been as good as his supporting cast.

Jordan's defensive numbers in his prime also set him apart: 200+ steals 6 times and 100+ blocks twice. Kobe is an overrated defender.

And - playoff stats are another major difference:
MJ -- 33.4 PPG / 6.4 RPG / 5.7 APG
Kobe -- 25.0 PPG / 5.1 RPG / 4.7 APG

Keep in mind -- Jordan did all of this in an era where most games had scores in the 80's and 90's, and where defenses were allowed to hand-check.

[Pat]

Michael Jordan is considered the greatest player because he is celebrated as such. It's a label given to him by for marketing purposes. Who is to say he is better than Magic, Russell, Kobe, Bird, or any of other all time greats?

The one thing that Jordan did do was grow the game and get millions of people to love and play basketball. But as a player, he is not the clear cut, greatest of all time.

[raps]

Anderson Varejoa as a raptors would be my dream come true. Make it happen Doug, do it now!

[raps]

OH and get Anthony Parker back while you are at it. Thanks. Cheers.

[doug]

I have a buddy who I can't talk to about who is the best player ever...or rather I can i avoid it at all costs, he tries to bring it up but i won't discuss it with him....why??...becasue for a rational man he becomes irrational, he becomes emotional, possessed...I say to him why does it matter to you so much who is the best???, ....he just goes off on this wild tangent, and I don't just get it, I really don't, never have never will....why does there have to be a best??..to me as you so accurately stated there isn't a best, there is if you can take parts of many players...but to be so pre-occupied on there being a best takes away from subjectively just watching and enjoying the game ...like if someone is adamant that Jordan is the best are they going to watch and appreciate Kobe the same??...no not at all.....yes it's good fodder for discussion, but i have found that its not a rational discussion, people allow there biases to enter the picture, feelings, emotions. etc....and there isn't a clear cut answer its just opinion...so i let it go and just sit back and enjoy the talent, the game, subjectively......although I can say my two "favorite" players of all time were the Doc and Jabaar, just due to there unique skill-set...

FIFA has to do something about that ref from the U.S. game just to aviod accusations of match fixing,....as their is still no viable explanation forthcoming as to why it wasn't a goal...they need to change their system from a one ref one as its far to prone to match fixing allegations....

[chris]

You don't know what you're talking about.
MJ regularly finished seasons shooting btwn 50 and 54%, with his overall percentage at 50%. Not once has Kobe shot 50% in a single season. Yet he's a better shooter?

And as for who is a better competitor.....its not even close.

Blogger's note: Your reading comprehension skills need some work:

Jordan’s jump shot is not comparable to Bryant’s

But thanks for altering my point. Makes your argument easier to make I presume.

[Sam- Dorval, Quebec]

Looks like CAVS have the best package for Bosh & Jose (As per Hoopsworld.com, Bosh+Jose for: Mo Williams, Antwan Jamison & Hickson. If Bulls are not willing to include Noah in their package, I think, this would be the best out of whole bunch (sorry but I'm not a huge fan of David Lee and Miami has NOTHING to satisfy Raps. What is your opinion Doug? Would you pull the trigger if the Offer:
1) Has any leg into it.
2) You were Bryan Colangelo.

Blogger's note: No

[Sam- Dorval, Quebec]

Sorry Doug: My previous comment was based on CB4,asking for S&T. :-)

[LeeZ]

The Raptors fire BC and appoint Doug Smith GM. The first call Doug gets is from Phoenix, and they're looking to gut the franchise and start over, seeing as how Amare ain't coming back and Nash ain't getting any younger. They want to get rid of Nash. Strictly a salary dump, and maybe get a first-round pick as well. Would GM Smith package the Raps' expiring contracts and their first-round pick for Nash? a) it might convince Bosh to stay, and b) even if it doesn't, it immediately improves everyone on the team and allows Nash to mentor JJ.

Blogger's note: In a heartbeat

[Sam- Dorval, Quebec]

Thanks you for your prompt reply Doug. God bless you and your family. Love your blog.

[chris]

My reading comprehension is fine. MJ sucked from 3 pt land, but the midrange jumper was his bread and butter. He's arguably one of the best mid range shooters in the history of the game.

Do you think the difference btwn Kobe and MJ's %'s are due to dunks and layups?

He was also a better defender.

And, Kobe has won 5 titles but was the best player on the floor in only 2 of those series, *maybe* 3.

[doug]

I meant objectively not subjectively in my post...am in Vanvouver for a wedding, jet lag...at least thats my excuse...was cruising the channels last night and saw Jimmy Kimmel and it said next the "World Champ Lakers"...I thought whats that all about surely there not there ...so watched, out came Powell, D.J. Mbenga, Brown, Vujajic...and i thought thats it no starters...then came Artest, Fisher and Kobe and it was a fun-filled affair, Artest hadn't been asleep yet and they all had a laugh as Artest wore his uni out clubbing the night they won.....they also gave him a trophy the best post-game performance ever..as at the press conference (they showed clips) he was hilarious and he was cute with his little daughter....Kimmel asked Kobe if they knew Artest was seeing a psychiatrist Kobe said :of course", but what a great teammate Artest is and all the guys agreed....then they did a bit on Adam Morrison and how he looked like guy from Boggie Nights a porn actor...and Kimmle had a film montage of him in his suits on the sidelines...it was a blast, but again kobe saifd he was a great teammate and without doubt one of the funniest teammates he ever had....it struck me how devoted Kobe was to his teammates, he mentioned about powell and how during time-outs Powell would be doing dance moves to the music, and Kobe would say to him "you do realize there is a game going on"...he gets along with them all, and you could tell they all respected him...I wondered would LeBron even do that??...with his teamamtes a night after they won the title i doubt it...it was just funny and showed the dynamics of the team...and how Kobe is a leader, and Fisher the silent one...as they talked about Fisher during the game giving a speech and saying...to paraphrase.."look were playing terrible but were still close, we have nothing to lose lets not give up"...to me it was no surprise they won after seeing the camaraderie and the respect they all had for each other, those are the unsung things no one see's....

[Dean]

i suggested that Nash will be here next season the day Steve Kerr quit !!!! Book it, BC is going after Nash. It would be brilliant for marketing and growing the game in Canada.

Then draft little rautins with a freshly bought second round pick and we will actually have some Canadians on our team for once.........

[hum]

I no longer have a football team to support (I'm French..)
A lot of personal agendas, but now I know the team never existed for a few years now..
I have to be rooting for The Fennecs after seeing them hold their own against the English, and arguably outplay them with heart.
Doug I'm not so sure Capello is to blame for the lack of heart of the English. I think he could have made different decisions, like play Gerrard like a center-forward in a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-4-1-1, but at the end of the day the players have to play. The French catastrophe makes me wonder how cohesive the English really are.
On the other hand, no question they looked very tired that day, which doesn't help the fact they also looked quite panicky, too.
Allez les Fenecs !

[Joe]

A bit of an off topic question but here goes:
Doc Rivers or Phil Jackson. If you could have either one of the two to coach your team, who would it be and why?

Blogger's note: Wrong forum for this, more suited to mail.

[doug]

Manute Bol has passed away at 47 years of age...thats just sad as he was a good soul...he wasn't just one of the tallest players in NBA history he was just a good honest person....R.I.P....

[Adrian]

As I'm sure you've heard by now, Doug, Manute Bol has passed on. I wonder if you have any stories with him? He was one of the most heroic players/philanthropists that pro sport has ever seen, and I've been thinking about him all day. Great loss.

Blogger's note: A terrible loss, absolutely. I don't have a lot of first-hand experience with Manute, unfortunately.

[Aditya]

Looks like CAVS have the best package for Bosh & Jose (As per Hoopsworld.com, Bosh+Jose for: Mo Williams, Antwan Jamison & Hickson. If Bulls are not willing to include Noah in their package, I think, this would be the best out of whole bunch (sorry but I'm not a huge fan of David Lee and Miami has NOTHING to satisfy Raps. What is your opinion Doug? Would you pull the trigger if the Offer:
1) Has any leg into it.
2) You were Bryan Colangelo.

Blogger's note: No
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So I am guessing you have altered your policy of not offering your opinion on fantasy trades. Alright then, will be pouring you with more trade ideas very soon.... Have a nice summer

Blogger's note: Here's the thing: I get to pick and choose what I do. Ain't life grand?

[Aditya]

Jordan never lost an NBA Finals and has one more ring than Bryant, who has lost a championship series twice.
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OK, what does that have to do with anything? Whether Kobe lost the NBA Finals or not doesn't matter. Why don't you compare how many Eastern Conference Finals and Western Conference Finals both have lost (Jordan and Bryant respectively).....

[mattmelanson]

Aditya,

it matters whether kobe lost or not because it directly affects his finals won-lost percentage, a way more important stat than sheer number of rings. Plus, more finals appearances has more to do with the entire team than just one guy.

Your insightful remarks really make this corner of the internet a more delightful place to visit.

[Johnn19]

Re the MJ - Kobe question who's better/ who's best. MJ has 6 rings, that's it.
Kobe has 5 and still counting, the story will be told in the next few years, after Kobe has retired, not now.

[Andrew]

Doug,
We absolutely should have these discussions about the Greatest. It's part of what makes sports fun. One of the criteria for the G.O.A.T. is if there were a pick-up game, who would be chosen first? For my money, Kobe is maybe in the top 5. I'm picking either Jordan or Bill Russel first. Wilt or Magic second. After that it's between Larry, Kobe, Lebron or Shaq. Doug, if you had first pick, can you say you would really consider picking Kobe?

Blogger's note: Oscar Robertson.