Time to re-think this whole numbering thing

We do seem to have a fascination with numbers here in our little corner of the world, don’t we? Averages, true average, ratings, points, assists, rebounds, whatever.

But maybe it’s time to retire some.

Like 2, 3, 4, 5.

When it comes to basketball positions, that is.

I think we’ve seen enough change in the game, and interchangeable parts, that to suggest some one is a shooting guard as opposed to a small forward, or a centre rather than a power forward, should probably be re-thought.

I know a lot of coaches have already done away with the distinction, they talk of wings and bigs rather than the traditional numeric system that’s been around for eons.

Guess it came up with all the hullabaloo I’ve been seeing over the likes of Andrea Bargnani and Amir Johnson and to a lesser extent Reggie Evans and even Ed Davis.

None of them are what consider “true” fours or fives but the question is: Does it matter?

The way the game is evolving is towards multi-faceted players and styles, everyone is searching out guys who can do a little bit of everything and can go to different spots on the floor and do different things.

No, Andrea is not a centre in the old school of thought and neither is Johnson. But what’s Pau Gasol? A power forward? Sure, when he’s on the court with Andrew Bynum I guess he is. But what about when he’s playing alongside Lamar Odom? Who’s the “centre” then?

What about Tim Duncan? Four? Sure, maybe next to someone like, oh, Tiago Splitter this year or David Robinson in the past? Or a five? Yeah, when Matt Bonner’s at the other frontcourt position, sure he is.

Chris Bosh? A centre? Sure, sometimes, I guess. Sometimes not.

Look at the twos and threes. What’s Kobe? How about LeBron? Do you really think either of them should be pigeon-holed? No.

Sure, there are those who still should be classified the olden way, I suppose. Shaq, who’s pretty much done; Yao, who’ll play half a game this year apparently; and Dwight Howard, one of the true “centres” left in the game. I’m sure there are others but they are the exceptions that prove a new rule around the game.

So instead of fixating on numeric positions and carrying on the way they did in the day of Wilt and Russell and the like, perhaps it’s time to see them for what they are:

Basketball players.

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Hmm, look what I found.  

Q: Thanks for the brief synopsis of the Women's Worlds. Honestly don't know how closely I'll follow outside of your blog, but I truly hope our Canadian ladies show well...and if by the sounds of it, it just means, showing up, competing and playing hard, then so be it. GO CANADA.

Having said that, you mentioned Canada seems to be in the Group of Death. If you were to take Canada out of their group, and replace the predicted 4th place team in each of the other groups (or just one based on your time), how would they finish? I realize they would be in tough in any group as this is THE WORLDS, but I am curious.

Thanks as always for broadening the spectrum of our basketball enthusiasm!

Peace

 

John D, Cairo

A: My depth of knowledge of the international women’s game still needs a lot of work but from talking to people who know the game, and what I know about it myself, I think they might finish fourth behind USA, Greece and France in Group B, I could see them qualifying out of Group C behind Brazil and Spain and they’d be in tough in Group D with Russia, Czech Republic and Argentina, although I think they could get the Argentines.

But you’re right, it is the worlds, it’s not supposed to be easy.

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Feel a sense of calm settling over the world today?

Leaves 4, Ottawas 1 and I don’t read a single report that talks about boos.

Thank goodness that order has been restored in the world of pucks.

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So Adam Silver and his folks and Billy Hunter and his gang of merry men sat down for a three-hour tour of CBA negotiations yesterday and it sounds like everyone left the room singing Kumbaya and holding hands.

Now, I don’t usually put any stock in quotes uttered after negotiation sessions but even I have to admit the tenor seemed far better after that one than it has been. No name-calling, no outright dismissal of information offered, no gloom and doom.

Of course, with the current collective bargaining agreement not expiring until June 30 there is all kinds of time for unpleasantries and posturing but it’s nice not to hear any on the eve of camp.

I’ve held all along that I don’t think there’ll be any games or days missed because of a lockout, I honestly think no one’s stupid enough to go down that road and kill the fatted beast that is the NBA and nothing I’ve heard of late has made me change my mind.

Sure, there have to be changes to the economic structure – perhaps in the percentage of revenue that goes to salaries, probably in the revenue-sharing model between the teams – but surely to all that’s good in the world, someone smarter than me sitting at that table will figure out a work stoppage is economic suicide.

Or not.

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There’s always room for more mail in the in-box. Let’s get it filled up.

You. Know. The. Drill.

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Spoiler alert:

Okay, looks like it’s going to be a morning with the computer screen trying to decipher Canada-Australia at the worlds. And then a chat with Allison and a player or two and a story long before you get to see the game on tape-delay on TV.

Here’s the thing: It could very well get ugly. The Opals are good, very, very, very good and having come off a pre-tournament win over the States, they look in fine form.

So don’t go in with great expectations, Canada’s two big games are Belarus and China and they come tomorrow and Saturday.

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Comments

[pk]

Good point you made on the position debate with the players as examples. I think what people still want is someone with a defined role/position. Like you mentioned, we want someone like Dwight, Shaq or Yao at the 5 instead of Amir or Bargs. Someone like Ray Allan, Allan Houston at the 2 instead of DD or Sonny. I always thought it is better to be good at one thing then be able to a little bit of everything. I'd take Emeka Okafor's 12 pt 12 rb 3 blks over Barg's 16 pt 5 rb 3 ast any day.

[Nitin]

Hey Doug,
I think its about time you start writing articles a little more controversial. I stopped reading your blog/reading articles because most of the time I not getting any more info the reading the box score. I b/c considering the grave situation the raptors are about to enter...not once..have you really ripped onto BC or STRONGLY questioned any of his moves. How about the fact the Andrea may have caused CB to leave. CB does not want to take on the rebounding load for every game b/c raptors have the weakest rebounding players in the league. I felt sry for CB many times. Nobody wants to grab boards. Damn Euros. Anyways, I just think I want to hear more controversial doug calling out players, coaches and gms more. I will come back to reading your literature once that happens.

Nitin

Blogger's note: See you in a while, maybe. Or maybe not. Enjoy. Damn Euros? Classic.

[Boko]

Hmm. Stop using 1, 2, 3, 4, & 5 (PG, SG, SF, PF & C) when describing basketball players? I don't see why it's necessary. Most C's lead their team in blocks. Most real SFs out-rebound their SG. Most PGs lead their team in assists. If the top scorer isn't a swing, teams usually have difficulty in the playoffs. Everybody should be rebounding, but the PF usually leads the team because the C was trying to block a shot a moment earlier. Do roles get traded during a play? Yes. Do the season totals deviate much from these patterns? No. When they do, it's the exception, not the rule, and it's because of very special players that have more skills than their usual position requires.

[Lorie]

Hi Doug,
Help! My usual online places aren't streaming the game from Ostrava. Are you catching it on the FIBA website, or are you lucky enough to have found a bistro with a feed? And if I have to pay for this and give FIBA my money, does any of it go to the Canadian team???? (Yeah, right.) Thanks.

Blogger's note: I've got nothing, sorry; did hear from a friend they were only down six late in the third. And, no, FIBA doesn't share.

[nasko]

Nitin, why do you think we care if you read Doug's articles or blog? It is obvious your understanding of the game is poor at best...

[radar]

Didnt Bosh say he didnt want to play the 5 at Miami? Sounds like he considers himself a true "four".

PS. Who's the raptors "five" again??

Blogger's note: Semantics. And Raptors' five is whoever you want to think it is

[pk]

@Boko
It's not necessary, but it sure is easier to type 1 or 2 then PG and SG. Also shorter to say 'One' than 'Point Guard'. It's called simplicity. It's been out for a while you know.

[whereisbisondele?]

Hey Doug - do you know what the logic was of removing the link directly to your blog (and from the Raptors header - now there's an extra click) under the basketball section? I've now bookmarked the blog, but used to just visit it every day after checking out the other stories on the main page. Maybe the tall foreheads just know we'll still take the extra click to find your pithy words... :)

Blogger's note: If you think I can figure out the tall foreheads around here, I fear you are sadly mistaken :)

[jeff]

This debate is ridiculous. Whether or not these labels are the best way of describing a player's role doesn't matter, especially with 30 different coaches/schemes and hundreds of individuals players.

The most important point is that the Raptors roster currently has no player that is 7 feet tall, strong, and can act as an effective rebounder, shot blocker, and defensive anchor in the post. If this guy has solid outside-shooting and/or passing skills ( a la Gasol, Garnett, Duncan, etc), of course that's a bonus.

Call him whatever you want, the Raptors don't have one of these players (they aren't the only team lacking this, of course) and without one their defense will remain atrocious and the team will have minimal (if any) playoff success.

[J]

@Boko:

"It's all relative, J. Just like in pickup ball, you put people where they fit relative to their teammates. I may be 6', but if everyone else is under 6', there's a good chance the team needs me to play C."

I'm not sure why you felt the need to explain this point (again) with a pickup ball analogy. It was already reflected in your comment about Gasol/Odom, and saying it several different ways doesn't change the fact that you're echoing Doug's point that players these days tend to play different roles when needed. Read what you said about Gasol and Odom. Read what he insinuated about Gasol and Odom. Actually read it without your already predetermined mindset to disagree. Only difference is where you've decided to make your stand. While Doug notes that the blurring of the lines between positions makes defining each player as a set position less important, you're harping about the need to keep positional labels due to their association with roles needed on a team. Player labels vs role labels. Apples and oranges. "Just saying."

[pain777pas]

@J

Can you tell me a team that did not have just solid interchangeable parts to fill the primary roles? Athleticism may cause some variation however, in most cases there is someone else who is better able to fulfill the role that the person who is trying to cross over is doing. The reason for this is to cause mismatches and maximize that individuals skills. The truth is there is not one team that I can remember that did not have a distributor, slasher, banger, rebounder, blocker(change shot guy in the paint) and shooter. Everyone can have variations of these skills however, the most proficient at that skill should be able to do their job. The reason why the Celtics lost is merely because there are components matchup wise that were necessary to defeat the mighty Lakers that weren't present. I for one would love to see a team win with a significant weakness in any of the areas above and be proficient. Some teams can account for inconsistency however, you MUST have the above components at least competently to excel and be proficient to extraordinary in at least 3 areas. This is why the Raptors were not successful. Steals are always a bonus but not a must you just have to prevent shots from going down and REBOUND after the first shot.

[Anthony R]

@Nitin.....go read MGrange. He's the most negative of the local beat grunts!

[J]

@pain777pas:

I don't understand the off-point question, so don't really see any point in answering it. Most if not all of your post seems to be a rant on an unrelated topic.

I was merely pointing out the fallacy in backing up your statements with anecdotal evidence. Had Garnett/Pierce/Allen/Rondo sat out instead of Perkins, the Celtics would still have lost. Being shorthanded one of your core players usually does that to you.

[Thane]

Doug:

Agree with you about the positions, but find it odd that you'd suggest it. Last year, when I asked you about the logic of the All Star game grouping PGs and SGs together, and SFs and PFs together, with Cs on their own, rather than Bigs, Wings, and Points, you defended their system, said it made more sense.

What's changed since?

Blogger's note: We do group the ballots by guards, forwards and centres and don't differentiate between SG, PG, SF, PF. I guess now there could be a way to do PG, Wings and Bigs but not sure the majority of the voters would understand it.

[doug]

what happened to the postings from 10:30 until approx. 3ish...there all gone..and it was a good discussion....

Blogger's note: I have no idea; I'll see what I can find out. It was pretty good.

[pain777pas]

@J

That is exactly what I'm saying. Traditionally players have roles and those roles were identified as 12345. Amongst these roles are the skill sets I mentioned in the earlier post. To beat a team like the Lakers you cannot be deficient in any given area. That is all I was saying. I'd write more but there is no point. Note that negativity is not what I come with. You have to understand that until 30 or so games into the season we don't really know what this team is going to look like. We all have to wait and see. However, there are some questions that some like myself may raise when looking at the roster on paper and judging by the talent around the league some like myself may have concerns that we may address like in the comment section of Doug's blog. There are some intelligent people who respond articulately like yourself and its good to hash things out and see different points of view. I like the blog. The team that Doug report's on is a team that I have followed since its inception. I would like to see the team succeed so we get alittle aggitated from time to time. Doug does a great job on here, in article and on the fan. No one is ranting at Doug or anyone. This is just fans letting their opinions (which everyone has) be known. /rant (or to me comment)