Vince, milestones, the Hall and one more silly TV sport

Oh, this’ll rankle more than a few of you, I’d suspect.

How about that Vince Carter?

Am sure you heard – and am sure some you were angered when you did – but HWSNBN went past Larry Bird – yes, THE REAL LARRY BIRD – on the list of all-time NBA scorers the other night.

Vince took a pass from Mike James – yes, THAT MIGHT JAMES – and drilled a three-pointer near the end of the third quarter of Dallas’s win over Sacramento.

Carter finished the game with 21,796 career points, five more than the iconic Bird.

So, what’s it mean?

Well, the obvious answer is it’s just a matter of longevity but I think that’s a bit simplistic, actually.

Yes, Vince is in his 15th season and has played 1,037 games and in this day and age, it would only figure that he’d pass some oldtimers on the all-time list.

But for those of us who’ve followed him for years, those simple facts are astounding to some degree. I certainly didn’t think Vince had a 15-year career in him when he was at the height of his fame, I wondered how his game would translate from the astonishing athleticism of his first seven years; it seems to have translated quite well. Vince can still dunk, although not nearly as effortlessly as he once did, but he can also play, he “thinks” the game far better now than I ever thought he could.

I laud him for sticking around this long and still having an impact on the game; he could quite easily be living out his dotage caring for his daughter and being a Dad, he’s playing on the last year of a contract and the last time I spoke with him he expressed a desire to keep going.

I bring him up today because later this morning I’m going to a news conference where a couple of direct inductees and the rest of the nominees for the 2013 Hall of Fame class will be announced.

And with that, and with a question someone posed to me here the other day, I’ll wonder whether I’ll ever hear Vince’s name there with a Hall of Fame class.

You can certainly see how he’d at least be nominated and I honestly think that will happen.

No, he never led a team to a championship or to even play for one and that is part of any Hall of Fame career, I think.

But he has now played 15 seasons and could end in the top 25 on the all-time scoring list. He has been a seven-time all-star and for a spell was among the most compelling players on the planet.

I can’t tell you how globally popular he was and I followed him all over the world; people were in awe.

So, yes, I can see him being at least a Hall of Fame finalist and then it’s up to wiser men than I to figure out if he gets in.

Sure, there was in the middle of his career a school of thought that he could have been more but it just didn’t happen.

But he is where he is today and that’s a helluva place to be.

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Little known fact?

I’m a bit of a Mary Chapin Carpenter fan (don’t tell anyone, okay?)

So, given the locale, what the heck.

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Okay, you know my hatred for the junk sports that clog the TV airwaves (and prove there are simply too many channels) simply because they’re cheap to produce or put on and are the mindless fodder that some see as white noise.

Well, I’m on the stool other day killing time only to look up at one of the many TVs in the joint (hello, Jack Astor’s at Square One!) to:

The New York City Kingpins vs. The Motown Muscle.

Yep, TEAM BOWLING.

For real.

Six guys against six guys and I swear the only thing I thought missing were empty cans of Schlitz and pizza crusts.

Yes, they professionals prying their trade, it should not be on TV. Guess they just couldn’t find a tape of an old pucks contest to throw on.

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Mail?

Please. It’s at askdoug@thestar.ca but can we cease and desist with the Andrea Bargnani queries. Trust me, I have enough to get through this weekend and all next week.

Not sure when we’ll do mail, figured we should do usual fare stuff through the weekend since there’s so much going on but we’ll get a couple of files up, if you’ll help and I find time.

Thanks.

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Of all the feel-good stories around the Blue Jays right now, there was always one cloud and I was wondering how they would handle Melky Cabrera and his drug suspension of last season and the news that broke last week linking him to PEDs through a shady Florida operation.

Well, found out today.

The Jays and Cabrera put out this press release shortly after 7 a.m. Eastern time and it was a pre-emptive strike like I’ve never seen before.

No press conference to answer inevitable questions once and for all – and if they’d done that and shut it down for the rest of the year, I’d have been fine with that.

But I think he had to speak, at least once, and putting out a press release at dawn and having that be the final word for the season? That flies in the face of how I think issues like this should be handled.

Look, I don’t know Cabrera from Adam and have never spoken to him. But he is who he is and did what he did and I think in light of the latest report, he needed to do one more news event so some questions could be answered.

He and Jays took the easy way out; too easy.

Too bad.

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Comments

[Nater G]

I broke up with a girl for Vince Carter as a teenager, spit on his silhouette at his former High School in Daytona as a College student, and now that I'm about the get married see him as a decent man who was also a global superstar. Vince isn't a Hall of Famer in my book, but he's also not Tiger Woods or Oscar Pistorius which should be celebrated.

[AT]

Doug, What would you set the over/under at for when the first question to Melky is about PED use?

Blogger's note: Third question of first scrum

[Dan]

did you happen to see the great reporting of Stephen a smith today? Claiming howard made comments to Gay that he messed up and should have waited till the summer to join the nets with him. It ignores the fact that Gay has no choice where he gets traded. That the Lakers have not played the Raps since the trade and it was almost a week before the trade the grizz played the Lakers. Dwight must be able to predict the future. This guy is terrible.

[Sharkey]

Melky's talking to the media right now and answering a few questions about it, but not giving much more. Honestly, I like what Anthopolous had said about it all along: "We'll always give a second chance. Maybe not a third chance, but always a second." That's the way it should be.

[LeeZ]

@Nater G: I broke up with a girl for Vince Carter as a teenager.
Um, Nater? This requires clarification. Please and thank you.

[sam]

Over the years, I think Vince has grown up, and now looks back at his time in Toronto fondly and perhaps regrets some of his behaviour. Hall of Fame guy....not really sure.

There were a few comments yesterday that were spot on...
@J and @Leez - well said. I couldn't agree with you more.

@Doug, Mary Chapin Carpenter is excellent....

[GK]

Interesting words regarding VC and I can't say I disagree. Two quick questions: (1) Do you think when voting time comes around VC will be remebered for his game (by that I mean his statistics) or the fact that he's almost just as famous for been known as never reaching his full potential? (2) How did the whole HWSNBN come about? I know you've used it for years now and I'm curious how it started?

Blogger's note: His game and I don't actually remember

[Andrew Gregg]

Hi Doug:

I know you hate to address rumours, but I for one would love to see a Barganani for Millsap trade.

Regarding your aversion to junk sports on TV, just wait till competitive rock wall climbing comes to the Olympics. It's on the shortlist.

AG, Toronto

[G]

Doug forgets but he came up with "HWSNBN" which also refers to the evil Voldemort from Harry Potter books whose name was not supposed to be said.

Blogger's note: I just don't recall when, and HWSNBN is better than Snape

[marc in panama]

Hola Doug,

Interesting your take on having to play for or win a Championship to be eligible for the Hall of Fame in your world. Hey! It's as you say, great bar stool chatter, and with that in mind, lemme ask you this: Under your criteria, Steve Largent wouldn't be in Canton. Different sport, sure, but criteria's gotta be the same no?

I used Largent, just because he was a great receiver, who never played in a Super Bowl.

Your criteria is tougher than mine, I say he's still a HoFer.

Ciao amigo,

marc in panama

[cc]

@Dan, i still don't see Gay playing enthusiastically w/ the Raps.. Maybe that's how he play.. may not.. Howard's comments could be accurate.

[LeeZ]

Marc in Panama raises an interesting point. And I wonder if the basketball HOF has anyone in it who didn't meet Doug's criterion. I'm a busy federal public servant, so needless to say, I don't have the time that some of you other slackers (and I use the term only in the most loving way) have to research these things, but maybe an Irregular could look this up?
Oh and btw, kudos, Doug, on the photo of Vince. That is an AMAZING pic. If you look at it for a few seconds, especially at where his shoes are in relation to the rim and crowd, it looks almost as though it was photoshopped, in that it looks...impossible!

[marc in panama]

Hola Doug,

Jeez, ya think Nike might want to get away from manufacturing, celebrating, and objectifying, athletes and the celebrity of sport and get back to drawing focus to the greatness of sport itself, because their selection of sponsorship and endorsement of the athlete spokespeople for their company is horrible. By my count this company stands for, lying and cheating, philandering, pedophile enablement, and now, allegedly murder. I mean seriously, OJ has to be licking his lips, hoping for early parole. As far as it can be shown by Nike's support of Lance, Tiger, Papa Jo, and Blade Runner, OJ's gotta be thinking he's eminently qualified for sponsorship...

Ciao amigo,

marc in panama

[David T (Ottawa)]

Hey AG,

I think most people who even want to give Bargnani a chance to see what he can do with this incarnation of the team (actually, I wouldn't mind that at all) would love to see a Bargnani for Millsap swap.

But really, you have to think what else you have to give up for that. Utah's not stupid -- they have a good player on an expiring contract and so they're selling high.

Is it worth it if you have to throw in T. Ross (at a guess)? Maybe he's expendable with Gay and DeRozan, but you're just trading positions of strength (or future positions of strength).

I can only see that if you can also take back one of Utah's PGs. But again, why would Utah do that?

[larry lukeeborg]

win or play for a championship to go to the hall of fame? so steve nash doesn't go to the hof?? [granted, his career isn't over yet, but if it continues this way...] i'm sure there's a host of other great players who would be excluded by your criteria.

Blogger's note: Team success is part of it; small part but part.

[Rob.V]

There is an argument that says Vince absolutely is a hall of famer.

Personally, my position is like dudes (hard ass), 30% of the players inducted would not be there. I would select the true stars of the game.

Having said this, any player that becomes the face of the NBA (albeit for a brief period of time) should be considered for HOF honors.

Is Allen Iverson a HOF player?. What if he was lucky enough to play alongside Shaq and Kobe was drafted by (the then)losing Sixers?

You cant base the inductees on championships, If so why does Malone, Barkley or Ewing get in?... because their teams weren't better?

Stats matter. They tell you that an individual was more skilled then his peers. They tell you that the player was consistent for a longer period of time.

Vince was as good (or better) of a scorer than Larry Bird. It's been proven. It might be hard to accept this but numbers don't lie. Bird played with better players and they won championships. Unless you can insert VC on those great Celtics teams it's impossible to debate.

Look, Vince Carter was a better player than Chris Bosh, and he was the face of the NBA for a very short period. If Bosh is a lock for the HOF (4 years ago by his words) then surely VC should be there.

What, CB4 gets in because he's lucky enough to play with LBJ and Wade in their prime and has a ring?

The process is flawed!

Stats... VC's stats should matter. The Hall is litered with "good" players who played with "great" players... not everyone will be lucky enough to ride alongside LBJ and Wade on the way to the hall.

My vote would be that "neither" VC or Bosh are Hall Of Fame players. Not out of spite, but rather because my list of inductees would be that much shorter.

The process is flawed and certain inductees should not be there. But if you're going to continue on with the process as is you're going to have to consider VC if he ends up with 27,000 points.

His career might actually be similar to that of A. English's no? I cant recall how many points he ended up with however I think it was similar to VC's totals. Did English win a championship? (I don't know).

[still bitter he quit on us]

if vince makes the hall of fame, I hope some Raptors fans show up to boo him at the ceremony.

[akashsingh]

@ cc

yes the unenthusiastic way he hit those game winners last week definitely prove your point.

#sarcasm

[Grant]

Hey Doug: Since I know you like sports writers who can tell stories, I'm sending this link to an article on Michael Jordan by Wright Thompson. It's one of the best sports articles I have ever read. http://t.co/7MXwi1vy

Blogger's note: Heard it is outstanding and in a free moment or six this weekend, I'll get to read it

[Peter]

I don't have a problem with the media release that the Jays put out. Cabrera served his suspension, he's paid for his mistakes, (or stupidity, whatever it may be) and now that there is an ongoing investigation into a number of players, and various other connections, I'm ok with him not sharing things in the media. I can see how it frustrates those in your position, but I don't think he needs to address the media, as long as he is actively assisting all authorities who are requesting to speak with him. When the current investigation is complete, I would hope that he has something to say, but as long as there is an investigation, I'm perfectly ok with his lawyers requesting that he not comment. Not everything needs to be played out in the media in an immediate fashion.

[Moshigh]

@ CC are u saying that to you it looks like Rudy Gay is not giving it his all? I hope im reading your comments wrong or maybe you dont watch all of the games. Gay to me has been certainly enthusiastic since arriving in Toronto and leaving a team where they obviously felt like they overpaid him. He has been excellent for this team and was the guy should have been taken before Bargnani years ago, since Raptors had Bosh and needed a wing player.

I never wanted Raptors to sign Nash and glad they didnt get him. He looks like a old man. Would have been a terrible move for Toronto in my opinion. $12mil/yr ouch that would have hurt.

I like Vince now, wont boo him as that clown I mean GM Babcock and upper management nearly ruined Raptors franchise with that trade!!!

[cc]

@akashsingh - let's enjoy these "game winners"..... while he's still here...

[DaveB]

Vince was a good player and put Toronto Basketball on the map. He was the inspiration for a lot of the Canadian kids who are playing NCAA and NBA basketball today. None of us like the way his days in Toronto ended, but it is time to move on. Last year I saw a TV program with Vince, Tracey McGrady and someone else (I forget). They both thought they could have had something special in Toronto and indicated that they both had regrets. They were kids at the time and probably made mistakes. I wish him well and I am happy he had a good career.

As for music, let's try something out of this world. Enjoy!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvAnfi8WpVE

[james]

I enjoyed your verbal essay on bar stool arguments over the best player ever, but thought there was one name missing. While the obvious choice is Jordan - particularly in the TV era (not many people saw Oscar Robertson or Bill Russell play that much) - for sheer entertainment value and raising the level of the team's play, I'd take Earvin Johnson. At one time, the 6'9" point guard was heralded as the wave of the future, but now seems totally unique. Only LeBron displays a similar collection of talents. The other necessary ingredient, it seems to me, is the worthy adversary, an opponent just about as good for all practical purposes. In Magic's case this was Bird, of course, and it is still hard to think of one without the other. The only similar duo: Russell and Wilt.
Hey, wait a minute: Think about the revolutionary nature of the Chamberlain oeuvre. Maybe he's the best ever.

[doug]

I could see Vince there... would rather him be there then Bosh as Vince was far more dominating...in baseball I know the ones that are close but haven't made it such as Morris/Raines etc but in basketball I am not sure I would like to sea a list of former NBA players not in the HOF...that would definitely help and influence my viewpoint, oh I just thought of one Bernard King I think he deserves to be there before the other 2...ok cheers