How They Stack Up

Another brilliant season from Detroit defenceman Nicklas Lidstrom, and his new status as the first Euro to captain an NHL club to the Cup, fueled a discussion during the playoffs as to where he stood in terms of all-time blueline greats.

Now, the retirement of his Red Wing teammate, Dominik Hasek, will have many trying to establish where he ranks among all-star netminders, or at least those of his era.

Trying to rate Hasek against, say, Turk Broda or Glenn Hall is nearly impossible since the game has changed so drastically for those playing goal since the early 1970s, and even more since the 1980s, because of the equipment used to play the position.

So let's stick with this era. Say, the last quarter century.

So where does Hasek rate? Here's the best of the last 25 years:

1. Martin Brodeur.

By early next season Brodeur will own the record for wins by an NHL goalie, and is closing in on Terry Sawchuk's all-time mark for career shutouts. With three Stanley Cups, a historic Olympic gold and three Vezina Trophies, Brodeur sits at the top.

2. Dominik Hasek.

It's the two Hart Trophies that really grab you. While with Buffalo, Hasek was an army unto himself while playing the position as the moment struck him. He won the Vezina six times, stoned Canada and won gold in Nagano and finished up with a couple of Cups with the Wings.

3. Patrick Roy.

Seems crazy, huh? Saint Patrick, after all, redefined the way in which the position was played to many. He won the Vezina three times and backstopped Montreal and Colorado to Cups. Perhaps the absence of significant international success is the only missing piece from his wonderful resume.

4. Grant Fuhr.

He was probably better than most will ever give him credit for while playing behind those magical Edmonton teams. Bouncing around after the Oilers didn't aid his legacy, but he was amazing to watch in his prime.

5. Ed Belfour.

A late bloomer, Belfour put up huge numbers and bested Roy in a couple of major confrontations when Belfour was in Dallas and Roy in Colorado. A prickly character to deal with, Belfour was, along with Brodeur, one of the pioneers of playing the puck among modern netminders.

Comments

[Roberto Calazar]

Interesting list and hard to argue but I think Luongo may squeeze into the top 5 if he ever gets a supporting cast around him. The guy is phenomenal.

[R Cottier]

There's something wrong with you. Patrick Roy is the greatest goalie ever. Ask anyone.

[Johnny]

Hasek is the best of my viewing life, which is about the 25 years you're grading. Brodeur would be second ahead of Roy, I agree.

I think if Hasek were North American, or had played in a major market during his peak we wouldn't be talking about him with Roy and Brodeur, but rather Gretzky and Orr for how unbelievably dominant he was, and seemed like he was playing a different game than anyone else around him.

[Jon K.]

Heh, not surprising that you'd rank Brodeur tops. With that said, funny that two of those guys played for the Leafs. Well, pretty much ended their careers with the Leafs.... now if only the Leafs could snag a goalie at the beginning of their career and keep their assets.

[Marijan Kalman]

So this is what Canadian media is saying:

Brodeur 3 VEZINA,Roy 3 VEZINA ARE BETTER THAN Haseks 2 HART, 6 VEZINA. They all played in the NHL at the same time and if we look at the number of TROPHIES won it seems to me that HASEK HAS A FEW MORE THAN OTHERS PLAYING ON THE WORST TEAM OR IN CANADIAN NUMERICAL SYSTEM 8 IS LESS THAN 3!!!!!!!!

In the MOST IMPORTANT GAME IN CANADIAN HISTORY HASEK RAPED WHOLE CANADIAN TEAM IN NAGANO WITH Roy AS GOALIE, THAT WAS THE NIGHT WHERE REALITY STRUCK AND ILLUSION DISAPPEARED ABOUT CANADA BEING BEST HOCKEY NATION.

Lets go a step further. I checked all European hockey sites and on every one of them HASEK IS THE BEST.

Please could you explain to me how someone who won more trophies than other goalies, playing in the same NHL at the same time is not the best in Canadian MEDIA but it is THE BEST BY THE REST OF THE HOCKEY WORLD.
Are you aware how much better then OTHERS YOU HAVE TO BE TO WIN HART 2 TIMES AS HILLBILLY FROM CZEZH REPUBLIC???

If Hasek was on Detroit team during his carrear he would have 600 wins 200 shutouts and 8 Stanley Cups.
Why every player born outside Canada has two do everything two times better than Canadian players to be recognized!!!!
Maybe just maybe it has to do with all Canadian media being a tad biased!!!!!!! JUST A TAD.........

[Guelphdad]

R Cottier

You hold an opinion right? So does Damien. My money is on Hasek as #1. Doesn't make your opinion any less valid though.

[Mr. Right]

Cox always loves his Europeans.

It's so PC.

Toronto Star, right? ;0

[mark]

Looks like we have a Habs fan who doesn't like your list Damien. I for one think you've got it right. I would suggest honourable mention to a couple other goalies who were unbeatable in their prime: Mike Richter and Mike Vernon.

[A. Brooks]

Damien, is it really that difficult for you to alert your readers that you have a huge bias/conflict of interest when it comes to talking about this topic. I have never seen a clarification on any of your Star columns(or this blog, or your appearances on The Reporters)that focus (and usually rave) about the New Jersey Devils/Brodeur. It calls into question your personal integrity, as well as The Star's. Does The Star have different rules for sports reporters? It's disappointing that a lot of your readers enter a debate from a dishonest beginning.

One of your readers above writes:

"There's something wrong with you. Patrick Roy is the greatest goalie ever. Ask anyone."

Before wasting his time, it would have been nice if this person knew why the criteria is cherry-picked and superficial, and that putting Brodeur at number one was never in question for you.

[Steve Barnett]

Pat Roy was good no doubt about it...But Eddie and Marty rank ahead because of thier ability to handle the puck...Numbers wise you have to put Hasek in there but i think if he ever really got his head into the game for an entire season he would have even better numbers...Luongo has luongo way top go before he makes the top 5 or 6... But era's aside Sawchuck was the man for me anyway..This is like the Orr, Gretzky argument..(even though everyone knows Orr was the best) And let's not forget the incomperable George Crha.

[Eric]

Imagining Glenn Hall with today's equipment brings to mind what an Olympic archer once said when asked how the old plain's Indians would compare with today's archers -- " If they'd have had the equipment we have today, we'd all be living in teepees."

[Sanj]

Brodeur has been impressive in the past but lately he hasn't been all that good. Witness the last 2 playoff performances.

[Steve]

Brodeur is good, but the fact that you've failed to mention he mainly wins while playing behind some of the best defensive teams on the planet sort of brings him back to earth in my eyes.

Patrick Roy also played with some stellar D in front of him in Montreal and Colorado.

Really you'd have to say Hasek was the MAIN reason Buffalo was as good as they were during the late 90's. His two Hart trophies attest to that, as do his 6 Vezinas. He also won Olympic Gold and while it took him longer to win the Cup, as I just said, his teams weren't as solid as the Devils, Habs, or Avs.

Hasek was better than Brodeur. SV% is a better statistical measure than any of the other ones that get thrown out there, and Hasek's numbers are consistently superior.

[Chris Hunt]

Marijan, you'll notice Damien placed Hasek ahead of Roy. Although you were quick to point out flaws in our "Canadian" numbering system, it seems that even here 2 is still higher then 3.

In addition, accusing the Canadian media of bias towards Canadian players and then stating the European media says Hasek is the best, it begs the question as to their bias, doesn't it?

When it comes to Hasek vs. Brodeur I have to agree with Damien. Brodeur has played more regular season and playoff games, he's won more regular season and playoff games, he's earned more shutouts, he has a superior career playoff Sv% and GAA and has competed for and won more cups. He's also got an Olympic Gold to balance out Hasek's.

In comparison Hasek has more hardware and better career regular season Sv%.

So, I don't think it's particularly out of line to say that Brodeur is the best goalie of the last 25 years.

[Don]

Hasek was and is overrated. During the incredibly boring "clutch and grab" era, he could lay on his back with his legs and arms flopping up for years in Buffalo because he had a big defense who were allowed to interfere with impunity. This was during the time when something like 5% of goals were scored on the rush. Can you imagine the feast players like Howe, Orr, Gretzky and Beliveau would have enjoyed on a prone flopper like Hasek? He was far less successful once the league decided to crack down on interference. So - he was a good goalie, but fortunate to have plied his trade at a time when he could literally lie on his back.

I would not put him in the top ten. I can agree with either Brodeur or Roy as number one.

[Wade Ivan]

Can't see how Hasek is not #1 on this list. Six Vezina trophies (on worse teams than those of Brodeur and Roy) beats three trophies. Two Hart trophies beats none. If you're adding international play, how does Brodeur top Hasek? You have to credit where credit is due, Damien. Hasek, hands down.

[Chris Boyle]

Last time I checked Patrick Roy won 3 Conn Smythe trophies. Brodeur and Hasek ZERO. If annointing greatness and solidifying your status as an elite goalie requires you to win a Stanley Cup, then please explain how a goalie who won 4 Cups and was the MVP in 3 of those victories can be pushed aside because of regular season success.

It is the reason that Joe Thornton is continually questioned, it will be the benchmark to which Ovechkin, Crosby etc will be held to as well.

Add to the fact that Roy revolutionized the position by making it a technical position and won a Stanley Cup in an era in a season in which Wayne Gretzky put up 200+ points. Not in the 90s where Ron Tugnutt had a 1.90 GAA. Fuhr is his only Hall of Fame contemporary from the 80s who won a Cup in that high scoring decade and he faded into mediocrity in the 90s.

Hasek may have had a better prime, but Roy had a better career. Brodeur may be poised to break some records, but they were achieved under different circumstances and will have been accelerated by post lockout rules.

Roy is number 1. Ranking Belfour in his same category is a joke.

[Phil Coe]

#1 Brodeur he,s going to hold lot of trophies to to show his grandkids
#2 Patrick Roy except the way he left montreal he looked like took his marbles away
#3 Hasek he is a tremondous goalie lacking heart he plays when he wants to for himself but he will be loaded with fun stuff for his grandkids too
#4Is tough Belfour And Cujo they both stood on there heads to save a Toronto team the couldnt save themselves
#5 Luongo this guy going to have fabulous records when he retires to his golf game

[greg]

Whether Hasek is the best of the last 25 years, or of all time is irrelevant.. And from his interviews in Buffalo and attitude towards the fans he seemed as prickly as Belfour.

Hasek is definitely amongst the best all time and of the last 25 years. Personally I think the man`s a jerk but a hockeywise a first ballot HOF without a doubt.

It`s a fun little excercise... no need to get heated about this stuff folks.

[Rob]

If Hasak played on Det Red Wings his whole life he NEVER would of got the Hart trophy. He got it because he played on such a crappy teams in buffalo. Hasak does not have enough time in the league to take number one spot. With Martin and Hasak is is more of a comparason to Gretz and Dionne not Orr. You also have to look at team style.

1. Roy- He has played on a crappy montreal team and a good Col team

2. Brodeur & Hasak- Martin's teams never left their zone,haha

[Clark Aitken]

When in doubt, check the rings.

Roy - 4
Brodeur - 3
Hasek - 2

To even suggest that Luongo is a lock to join this discussion is hilarious. The guy has not won a damn thing yet. At this point he's nothing more than the evolutionary CuJo.

[Marijan Kalman]

My Dear Steve,

Europen media IS BIAS and they acknowledge this.Problem is that Canadian writers don't want to say WE ARE BIAS they do that between the lines.
Still you didn;t answer my question: All three goalies played in the NHL at the same time, Hasek won 2 HART AND 6 VEZINA playing on the worst team, AND BEATING TO THE PULP IN NAGANO ROY AND ALL OTHERS. WATCH NAGANO GAME AND YOU WILL SEE AGAIN THE MOST DOMINANT PERFOMARNCE OF A PLAYER ON BAD TEAM THAT WON GOLD.

2 other goalies didn't win toghether more throphies.

SO HOW CAN ANYONE SAY THAN they are better then Hasek.

Playoffs has nothing to do with what kind of player you are.
Your team might be shut like Buffalo and you migt never play in playofs, that doesnt mean that you are not best player your position!! Ray Bourque example.

Would you say that Lidstrom is not best DEFENSMEN just because his team is not in the playoffs even he has 6 Norris trophies or maybe you would say that Prost is better than Schumaher who has 2 times more wins!!!

[Peter]

Nice subject to yank a few chains. Putting aside Mr Cox's obvious fondness for him for a moment, Brodeur has not yet moved clubs to chase the Cup, walked out on a team or brought up his children as bad tempered losers. Much harder to measure than a GAA...

[dec918]

Tom Barrasso won a Vezina as an 18 year old American. He won 2 cups with a Pittsburgh Penguin team that expected him to be their defense and goalie. No, he certainly would not win any public relations awards, but he was a great goalie for the penguins. When he use to speak to the media he was as bright and articulate about his sport as any I have heard.

*As an aside, I love the Patrick Roy/D Hasek gold medal game at Nagano.

[Ken Sy]

I think that a lot of people don't like Hasek partly because he is European plus the fact that they claimed he has no "heart" and class while apparently all great Candian players do. But those same people also conveniently "forget" that when Hasek was injured and out for the season in Detroit, he gave back millions of dollars back to the team just because he was injured. Now who amongst you would be willing to do that? I for sure wouldn't and for that I think he deserved to be respected.