Pretty Darn Close to Factual

The mistake, it seems, was not going back further than seven decades. And not remembering to check the defunct teams.

Let's just say when I wrote about there having never been an NHL general manager who won a Stanley Cup with one team, then another with a different team, there was a nagging feeling in the back of my mind that this might end up coming back to bite me.

The idea was to show how difficult it would be for Brian Burke to raise a Cup in Anaheim and Toronto given that no one had ever pulled off such a feat.

Even checking the NHL official guide and record book five times over, and running it past a variety of seasoned hockey journalists, didn't save my sorry butt this time.

Turns out Tom Gorman did pull it off back in the 1920s and 1930s. In fact, he did it with three teams - the original Ottawa Senators, Chicago and the Montreal Maroons.

So that made me wrong when I wrote in the Sunday Star that it had never happened.

Go ahead. Let me have it.

Does that make the basic point wrong? Probably not.

Lets face it. Running an NHL team before WWI was a different job than it is now. The idea, really, was to show how difficult it has been over the course of NHL history to translate managerial excellence from one franchise to another.

That point pretty much still holds. If we want to limit it to the post-World War II years, I'm okay with that.

If Burke can hoist the silver chalice with the Ducks and Leafs, it will be an extraordinary achievement, any way you cut it.

What will be interesting to see, given that the Leafs are now on their third GM in 11 months, is if Burke can outlast all the Leaf GMs in the post-expansion era.

Since Punch Imlach left, Jim Gregory has been the longest continuously serving Leaf GM with 10 seasons, from 1969 to 1979.

Next? Gerry McNamara made it through 6 1/2 seasons, from Sept, 1981 until he was fired in February, 1988. Cliff Fletcher was the boss for exactly six seasons on his first tour of duty.

So Burke needs to aim first for seven years - that's going to require a contract extension at some point - then gun for the big one, Gregory at an even decade.

Given the history of this franchise with GMs over the past 40 years, longevity on its own is always worth watching.

Comments

[Joel]

How many GMs after having won a cup have switched teams? I'm guessing not many. I really see no cause-and-effect relationship here, just coincidence. It should be an advantage on many levels to have had experience winning it all.

[Bruce]

What Burke has going for him is his age. At 53, I figure he has about 20-25 years for the Leafs to win a Cup. So that's more than twice the opportunity of Gregory.
Good Luck Brian!

[Ryan]

It's definitely an advantage having the experience of winning a cup. But I don't think its so much that winning the cup with 2 different teams is the issue as much as the fact that its just plain hard enough winning it once with one team.

[nugentmania]

Well, I think it's all beside the point. He doesn't have to bring Toronto a Cup. Maybe if he went to Detroit, or even New Jersey. I mean, even in Tampa Bay some people still carry the expectations. But for Toronto? Nope. All he needs to do is bring them back to the playoffs, make them relatively competitive. The Leafs fans can do the rest. They'll start to sing that they're not that far off from contending, because that's Toronto. Perspective ceases to exist. I mean, Damien gets letters from guys who say "What if added two more impact players? Could we contend then?" Or "What if we signed these 4 guys? Would that get us the Cup?" That one is my favourite, since the Leafs think they're players in free agency because they offer A List salaries to B List agents (Kubina, Blake, Finger).

[Moe]

I am not sure that this is the correct place for a comment. Maybe it's just me, but I can never find the correct place to submit "mailbag" questions.

I will assume you have noticed that Vesa Toskala is uncomfortable handling the puck. In fact, it seems to me a near clinical phobia. What gives with this. Is it that hard for a goalie to do. Are there others who suffer this affliction in the NHL? If so whom, and why do you think it occurs? Do you have any insights?

[Moe Green]

The Leafs inability to convert on the 5 on 3 powerplay would seem to be due to two things. First a lack of truly skilled snipers. Second, on the 5 on 3 they seem to take a lot longer looking for the perfect shot that they never find. What's you take on this nearly absurd deficiency with the current team? Also, given Ron Wilson's reknown as a defensive hockey first and penalty killing coach, why do you think the Leafs are struggling in these areas?

[colin]

Damien - which war was that?

[A-Mar]

Shame on you for neglecting to mention the Maroons!! What's next, excluding the Ottawa Silver Seven

[Roberto]

Why would it be an issue to not get your facts straight now? You have been doing it for years. It was only last week you said Stempniak was a 7th rounder (correct info is 5th) . Need more? Let me know.

[johnny thunder]

'Even checking the NHL official guide and record book five times over, and running it past a variety of seasoned hockey journalists, didn't save my sorry butt this time.'

when has it?

[Down Goes Brown]

Cox has a great point: Only one GM has ever won a Cup with one team, then won again with another team.

Some people would claim this is because the sample size of GMs who win a Cup is small (after all, only one guy can do it every year), and the sample size of GMs who win a Cup and then move to another team is even smaller.

I say, screw sample size. I choose sweeping generalities.

So in that spirit, I’d like to share the following equally important observation: Only one player has ever won a Conn Smythe with one team, then won it again with another team.

Clearly, following Cox’s logic, this means that the Leafs must avoid at all costs acquiring players like Henrik Zetterberg, Scott Niedermayer, Nicklas Lidstrom or Brad Richards. All of these guys might be incredibly good players, but each has already used up their one win, just like Burke has.

Furthermore, no player has ever won a Conn Smythe with one team as a player, and then won a Cup with another team as part of the front office. I’ll say that again: nobody, in the entire history of hockey! That’s literally dozens of seasons!

Clearly, this means the Leafs must immediately fire Joe Nieuwendyk. Sorry, Joe, the indisputable evidence of tiny, tiny sample size has revealed your incompetence.

Also, only one family (the Richards) have ever had a player score a Cup-winning goal, and then had his brother go onto win a Cup of his own. So that means the Leafs must get rid of Tomas Kaberle before they will ever win a cup. I suggest putting him on waivers right now.

Also, no player, ever, in the entire history of hockey, has scored a Cup-winning goal and then had a son who was a Cup-winning GM. WHY DIDN’T COX TELL US THIS??? We could have avoided hiring John Ferguson Jr!

Keep up the good work, Damien. There is much to be learned from cherry-picking meaningless facts out of small sample sizes.

[drew]

hey Down Goes Brown ... you really do need a life ... maybe you could join up with Roberto and Johnny who clearly are perfect and hockey geniuses to boot!! - they seem to enjoy looking any potential deficiency in any person who would dare say anything negative about the finest sports franchise in the world (if you don't include winning as being at all important ...)
but please don't ever stop writing ... we all need some laughter in our lives these days!

[Shack23]

That was pure gold, DGB. I expect Nieuwendyk to be bounced in the next week.

[Chris Williams]

As a matter of fact....Lester Patrick also performed the same feat with the Victoria Cougars and the New York Rangers.
But only the Rangers were the only true NHL team.

If you really wanted to stretch a point....You could also include Frank Selke Sr as he was the acting GM with the Leafs during the war, and he was the GM for many cups with the habs.

[Colin]

I just want to commend Down Goes Brown on his/her comment. That spoke for the number of readers who instantly saw a flaw in this arugment from the first time the pen hit the paper.

Now, let's not even start with those who claim Burke has the cup fall onto his lap in Anaheim but STILL will resort to this argument.

[fatmike]

Good points DGB. Typical Damien finding any reason to beat up on the Leafs I am convinced that if the Leafs ever found a way through some miraculous event to land a Crosby or Ovechkin Damien would find fault. Clearly Damien must be listening to Cherry and using his type of obsure thinking ie: No European has ever captained a Stanley Cup team (up until Lidstrom). WHAT IS THE SAMPLE SIZE!! European Captains are a new thing to the NHL.

[Paul Lynd]

DGB has put a tremendous "baseball useless fact" spin on this Spin blog! Reminds me of sitting there watching World Series ball and in the 2nd inning of Game 3, the announcer (or an on-screen graphic) will inform us that, "no team in World Series history with 2 switch hitters who spit the chewing tobacco out the left sides of their mouths while batting from the right side and wearing batting gloves in Tuesday afternoon games played outside the state of Wisconsin has ever gone on to get a two-out double in a Game 3."
You know right then and there your team has no chance and you might as well change the channel and watch Hollywood Squares reruns.

[Habs Fan]

Come on Damien, just come clean already. It's obvious you don't care about any team that isn't the Leafs. I mean I know you write for the Toronto Star but when there's no news in Toronto and and you continue to write about the Leafs, that's just ridiculous. Even mentioning Toronto and the Stanley Cup in the same sentence (unless referring to the Cup's home at the HOF) is just crazy. There are 29 other teams in the league, try reporting on one of them for once.

[AdHoc]

Hey Habs Fan...

There are 29 other teams in the NHL, but Damien covers the LEAFS, therefore he writes about the LEAFS. How many La Presse columnists assigned to cover Les Habitantes write columns about the 29 other teams on a regular basis?

editorial note: I can't believe I'm standing up for Damien Cox!

[Rick]

So, are you saying Damien, that if Lamorello bolted Jersey he wouldn't have won another cup? Ken Holland?

[Norm]

Know he wasn't the GM (had various titles such as assistant GM) but Jimmy Devellano won 3 cups (I think) with the Islanders and then came over to the Dead Wings (where he immediately drafted Yzerman) and eventually the Wings won 4 cups.

[reality man]

By the way, to your list of great GMs that have worked for only 1 team can be added several more recent GMs that have won a Cup but have never worked as GM for more than 1 team - not that they are all great but they are just recent ones that I can remember off of the top of my head.

e.g
serge savard
ken Holland
Lou Lamariello
jay Feaster
Jim Rutherford
Pierre Lacroix

The fact that these guys have never won a Cup with more than 1 team means nothing to your hypothesis because they have never tried. Among these guys, alone, you are removing 12 years of NHL history from your test cases and when you add Pollock you remove another 9 from this guy alone

If you want to demonstrate your hypothesis then you need to list all GMs that have won a Cup and remove all from the list that never managed another team. Then you need to weed out all other GMs who managed other teams but for insufficient periods e.g. 1-3 or 4 years (e.g. 4 years of NHL history removed for Punch Imlach, alone, who won 4 cups in Toronto but wasn't around long enough in Buffalo or in the second stint in Toronto to build an expansion team or to rebuild a horrible Leaf team) because I would fully agree that it usually takes more than 3 years (and likely longer) to turn a loser into a winner - although Burke is an exception here as he took over a 76 point team, turned over 10 players on the roster, replaced the entire coaching staff and won in Anaheim within 2 years.

In fact, if Burke has a 6 year contract then your speculation on his future success would have to look at a sample of GMs that have managed a Cup winner and then have managed another team for 6 years, or so, because 6 years is what he has to do it in. Then you would have to probably exclude any GMs that were significantly disadvantaged by acting as GM on a second team with a budget that was far lower than the competitive teams of the times because Burke will have a large budget to add veterans (e.g. the Selannes, Prongers, Niedermayers)to a core group that he builds.
Even Lamariello was spending $50 mil+ when some teams were in the low $20 mil+. Otherwise, you are comparing apples and oranges or much of your sample is inappropriate for inclusion (e.g. 1 team GMs).

I would suggest that your sample size for such an experiment is not going to be very big and might net you a handful of actually relevant test cases.