Another Poll, Same Results

So 63 per cent of Canadians who call themselves hockey fans want fighting in the game according to a poll in the Star today.

And 61 per cent of Canadians in general think fighting should be banned. And that leaves us where?

Well, in the same place. A similar poll a couple of months ago showed basically the same results, which were discussed over and over in this blog.

The pro-fighting crowd believes this should, in some way, end the discussion.

Ah, don't think so.

The reality is that 37 per cent of hockey fans don't like fighting, and without a shred of evidence to support it, my guess would be that's a share that has increased steadily over the past 25 years.

But the pro-fighting crowd still rules the roost, which means in the NHL, North American minor pro hockey and major junior hockey in Canada engaging in a fight generally only means a five-minute major.

But sanctions continue to crowd around the actions of fighters, including new ones proposed by NHL general managers just last week.

So the days when fighters set their own agenda are over. And the day when fighters in most leagues - including the NHL - are booted for fighting aren't far off. A decade, perhaps.

Change takes a long time in a sport as deeply-rooted in tradition as hockey. When I grew up in the 1970s, bench-clearing brawls were common, and there were just as many folks willing to justify them as there willing to provide rationales for fighting today.

Eventually, bench-clearing scraps were legislated out of existence.

Today, there are new rules against fighting in the OHL and QMJHL. Last week, instead of getting rid of the instigator penalty, the root of all evil according to the pro-fighting crowd, NHL GMs voted to use it more aggressively.

So change is a-coming, and the tide is unstoppable. Hockey, the great game that it is, will only be greater when fighting vanishes from the landscape. Of course, those of us who don't need it in the NHL only have to wait about a month when the element that some argue is so indispensable to the game totally disappears during the NHL playoffs, the most meaningful time of the year.

So, those of you that love it so much when the gloves get dropped, wrap yourself in today's poll if it makes you feel better. And enjoy the last few days of the NHL fighting season. I'm sure the game will be so lousy without fighting once the playoffs begin you'll find something else to watch.

But understand your days of being in the majority are dwindling. Enjoy it while you can. And let the argument rage on!

Comments

[Sebastian]

No chance Damien Cox or half the other Sallys agreeing with him have ever played any kind of competative hockey. And people like that should not be commenting on things they have never been involved in.

[Dave So]

So many things to say about fighting in hockey (if the subject were a horse, everyone on both sides would have beaten it all the way through the planet into China by now).

Topic 1: Respect.. Players lack it, coaches lack it. Coaches are well known (some more than others) for sending out lesser skilled players with the intent of taking out players on the opposing team. Some players play dirty with their sticks, crosschecking, etc, etc. Obviously the game moves at a very high speed, and ACCIDENTS will happen (unintentional slashes, tripping), but the fact remains that players and coaches both approach certain teams and players with the game plan of intentionally and at many times illegally taking out players on the other team... It's got to stop.

Topic 2: Self policicng.. Number 1, isn't policing what the refs are for? If they're not calling stuff, perhaps the league should look at penalizing them for a lot of the no calls they (don't) make. Every time rule changes happen, the changes are called for a week or two, and then everything loosens up to the way it was before (this time will be no different). Number 2, why don't teams self police their own players? The message in regards seems to be that dirty play will not be tolerated by the other team (in so far as TeamA will send an enforcer after a guy on TeamB who boarded a member of TeamA's player), but it seems to be accepted when a member of your own team plays dirty if it helps you score a goal or win a game... In a nutshell, whatever it takes to win, even if it lacks integrity.

Topic 3: Penalties.. I think the league really needs to look at the penalties they hand out and realize that they're a joke.. 2 minutes? 5 minutes? Double the time for all penalties and make teams really suffer for their carelessness, or sometimes pre-meditated infractions. As well, don't let a guy out of the box because his team got scored on.. You should have to stay in the box for however long you're supposed to, even if it means that your team gets scored on 5 times.

Topic 4: Suspensions.. Fighting cannot be stopped (yes, even other sports have the odd fight), but the penalty for it can be so severe that only an idiot would engage in it. If an NFL player gets suspended for even just one game, that's nearly 10 percent of his entire season. Bring the NHL's suspensions more in line with other pro leagues and guys will stop dropping the gloves, and concentrate on putting the puck in the net.

The league needs a major overhaul and it's coming sooner or later. But more importantly the attitudes of all the participants need a major overhaul... If players and coaches attitudes changed, that would go a long way to solving the problem.

[Bill]

I'm not a fan of fighting but I have to admit the reference to the Clark-McSorley fight was a good one. That was damn exciting. But that was driven by pure emotion and those guys could play, they were not goons. Although under the new rules Clark would have gotten the 10 min major for going after someone who hit his teammate. Its the staged fights between goons that have no place in hockey. Goons need to be eliminated from the game.

[James Burton]

Fighting is not in the playoffs? One of the best playoffs ever was when the flames went to the final. Iggy fought in almost every series. He fought Vancouver's Ohlund, I think someone from Detroit and Vinny of the Lightning. What a GOON! Oh yeah hasnt he won a Rocket Richard trohpy? And Vinny, hes a goon too! But what do I know, I have only played the game my whole life and understand why it is a great game. I love these people that want to chg it. If you dont like it watch something else.

[Dave So]

To Mark Hillard: I would like to think that hockey players, valuing their reputations as some of the toughest athletes in the world, would not resort to taking dives... and yeah, it does happen already, but with the idea of self policing, maybe teams should be self policing their own teams to ensure that everybody plays with character and maintains that toughness.

[Robb Brown]

When NHL drops fighting a new league will start up. I predict the return of the World Hockey League. As more White collar elite liberals watch the NHL and the ticket prices exceed what us Blue collar folks can afford...they those folks will indeed remove the fighting. We will be forced to watch our game somewhere and it will indeed leave an opening for another league. To me as a fan I am much more concerned with being able to actually afford to go to the game I love than whether there is a fight or not.

On another note to those that think they know what the rest of us all think..... Which sport has garnered the most attention and the highest increase in fans in the past Decade?

The answer is U.F.C. (that's Ultimate fighting championship) for those White collar Liberals

[James Burton]

I cant believe one of you guys want to take bodychecking out of the game too! Unbeleivable. This is what Cherry was referring to. People come to our country because its awesome but they demand it is changed too suit them. Same with hockey, people come to this sport and want to chg it because it is too "barbaric". If you want to chg it, its not the sport for you, try something else, something a little tamer. These views certainly dont make anyone racist or a biggot. If you love something and respect the tradition and people demand it is chgd because they dont like it, respect it or understand it, it is insulting.

[Moon]

Its reporters like you that are missing the boat on saftey....forget about fighting, it sells tickets. How about you poll people after a fight in the game or on tv to see if they watched it or turned away?

If you want to make the game safer, head shots is #1. If you were doing your job right you would be talking about this subject not about fighting.

[Adam]

Damien you are becoming so predictable its getting boring. Carrying on an argument for so long when it clearly is over (for the time being). I just cannot wait to see how you manipulate the data from today's survey on the Star homepage ("Do you think pro hockey would be as entertaining without fighting?") to serve you and your plight better. Just an opinion but from the outside looking in it seems to me that you are just fishing for only what you want to hear through these terrible surveys instead of actually listening to what people (real live people, not just what us online commentors)have to say.

[mark]

Interesting point made by Pierre McGuire on the NBC hockey broadcast on Sunday. He said that by upping the ante on the 'instigator' rule that it may actually increase clean hits in the game. His rationale was that some players are less inclined to deliver a good body check for fear of retribution by their opponent's designated goon. I hope he is right, but I still fear that in concentrating solely on fighting and not also increasing the penalties for really dangerous plays like open ice elbows/sticks to the head or hits from behind that this really means open season on some of the more talented players on each team. I won't miss the staged goon dancing and I won't miss retaliation on clean hits. But I wonder if most coaches won't view a marginal 3rd or 4th line player sitting out a playoff game as a good trade off for putting the other teams star player out of commission for an extended period of time (e.g. entire playoff series)? I don't understand why the league can't look at the big picture and address fighting and dangerous plays instead of just fighting. It seems knee jerk to me.

[Dave So]

Why do people constantly ask "Have you ever played hockey" of those that are not fans of fighting? Yes, experience definitely counts for something, but you can study the game from the outside for a very long time and have just as much knowledge of someone who's played it. How many of you have been an MMA fighter, since a lot of you, though not all, always like to bring up how brutal it is? You don't have to have been a participant to have an opinion. People like to make comments on all sorts of things (the police, the mayor, the PM, the US Presidet, war), and they've never been directly involved with any of those things. If you study a subject and can form an informed opinion, then it is valid.. Period.

[2nd Guess]

Ah, yes, the "historic" bout between Wendel Clark and Marty McSorley that defined the 1993 playoffs -- for some. I'm a Canadiens fan -- guess what I remember most about 1993?

[Nick Abramczyk]

The only people who want fighting banned are THE ONES WHO DON'T PAY to see the games.

[Chris Gomes]

Hockey is a beautiful game, why keep changing it!

Im tired of hearing about changing everything about hockey!

Just cause someone dies or something happens we have to change our whole game around, like common, its ridiculous!

[D_Brown]

How many injuries must players sustain and lives need to be lost just to entertain you? Pro-fighters are incredibly self-centered and obviously have not thought of the impact that glorified violence has on the children of today. If you like to watch people fight, watch boxing.

[oilers84]

"I'm sure the game will be so lousy without fighting once the playoffs begin you'll find something else to watch."

Cox you're a moron ... fighting doesn't disappear at all during the playoffs. The intensity of playoff hockey leads to fighting. Or have we forgotten about Vinny vs Iggy from the '04 finals?

The staged fights (which need to go) disappear but that's it.

[Allen Ford]

Gee, whenever I am at NHL game (or any game for that matter) and two players drop the gloves, it sure seems like more than 63% of the crowd are standing up and hooting and hollering.

[Thomas]

"But understand your days of being in the majority are dwindling. Enjoy it while you can. And let the argument rage on!" HARDLY...hockey without fights is like watching knitting.
Visit www.keephockeyfights.com and sign the petition to keep fighting in hockey...show your support!

[DerekG]

I'm trying to raise my son (5yrs) to appreciate such virtues as hard work, talent, respect, good sportsmanship, and the concept that values aren't compromised just because you put on a jersey or a business suit or some other work uniform. As long as fighting remains in hockey, he will be confused about these messages and, therefore, my son is welcome to watch other sports that don't choose to accept moral circumlocutions to justify the poor decisions of supposedly grown adults.

[Tim]

I'm more upset with defensemen pushing forwards into goalies, then punching them for hitting the goalie than I am with fighting.
Maybe they should institute a "Knee down" rule for fights or something similar, where when one player's knee touches the ice, the fight is stopped. That way when things get one-sided, the fight is brought to a conclusion.
I know it won't stop all of the dangerous situations like people falling and hitting their head but it might stop others.

[Dave So]

Nick: Technically everybody who watches hockey pays for it... Even if they don't attend games, they pay the cable companies for the channels that show them.... P.S. There are I'm sure a great number of "real" fans in Toronto that don't go to Leafs games because of the astronomical prices charged. Just because they don't go doesn't make them less of a fan, it just means they're either A: Smart enough to not pay the ridiculous prices for a substandard team, B: They enjoy hockey on TV because of commentary, multiple angles, and not sitting up in the nosebleeds, or C: They simply just can't afford it.

[Noam Sugarman]

Thought I'd point out one of the many contradictions of the anti-fighting argument. You often hear these crusaders contend that fighting discourages skilled players from playing the game, those players who have no interest in fighting; that as youngsters, many hockey players get squeezed out of the game by incessant goonery. Then, out of the other sides of their mouths (and I'm taking this from when Mr. Cox was on the Fan's morning show last week), they can contend that throughout the history of the game, there are examples of great players who never fought, and that this is an example of how fighting has always been a marginal part of the game. Cox brought up Dave Keon and Mike Bossey, though you could throw in Gretzky obviously, and to use a more contemporary example, Matt Duchene of the Brampton Battalion, a top rated prospect, has never been in a fight. Even John Tavares has never fought, though he came quite close this January after receiving a few cheap shots from a much lesser player. So which is it, all ye crusaders? Is fighting stifling the skill element of the game, is it chasing the gems away, or is it but a marginal element? I'd say it's an important and exciting part of a game that despite being rough, has always had room for the highly skilled.

www.hockeymuse.blogspot.com

[wem1]

The most important and entertaining hockey matches have for the most part been fight free. The teams and players of those matches knew better than to use it as a safety valve, and they also knew that the alternatives (stick work) were not acceptable either. A fight free atmosphere in a sport is a sign of the sport's maturity. Unfortunately it is taking quite a while for this game of hockey to grow to the point where it is respected by all spectators and players, but the day is coming.

[Tim Banks]

Mr. Hockey himself, Gordie Howe, approves of and indulged in fighting in the game. This is a man, who played the game at a high level for many years, and understands what it's actually like to be out there on the ice. So, we're to ignore his vast experience and take the word of a scribe, who never played the game at anything above recreational level (if that)? Past and present players at the highest competitive level understand the purpose of fighting in the game, which is to allow the stars to operate without being hacked and abused. The evolution of the neanderthal, whose sole purpose is to fight in staged goon-on-goon bouts is an aberration that should never have evolved, as it really doesn't have much to do with making the pests and instigators take responsibility for their actions. Gary Roberts is a fine example of a player, who could play AND handle the facet of fighting when necessary. Even the all-time penalty minutes leader, Tiger Williams, scored 35 goals one season and reached at least 20 several other seasons. The instigator rule was brought in as a knee-jerk reaction to a minority outcry over fighting. Dirty players hide behind that rule - free to inflict stickwork and cheapshots without fear of immediate retribution for their actions. A hatchetman like Bobby Holik would never have survived in Howe's era; he would've been made to answer for his dirty play each and every time until he got the message to keep his stick to himself.

Hockey has always been a rough game, but these writers with their soapboxes insist upon trying to change it to suit their own vision of Utopia, which is a game free of violence and mayhem. The game has survived a long time and has its proponents on both sides of the fighting issue, but why should the game change to suit the desire of one side when it would obviously alienate the other side? There is no proof that taking fighting out of the game would substantially create an influx of new fans to take the place of those disinterested in such a format change. What gives Cox the right to assert that the game should be forced to change to his way of thinking over anyone else's point of view? When it comes to the game of hockey, I'll take Gordie Howe's view, as well as that of scores of former players', over the whining of a mere scribe, who has no legitimate experience in the game whatsoever.

[Jason Locey]

I hear jawing all the time that fighters protect players. I happen to like fighting, but I wonder if stiffer penalties and suspensions for dirty plays would actually be more effective in protecting players?
One thing that bothers the hell out of me and makes me wonder if fighting actually does need to go, is seeing a player have to take punches in the face for laying a good clean hit. For all fighting apparently does to protect players, it equally inhibits good physical hockey. What do you like more, a great hit, or a fight where two 220lb men hug and throw ineffective punches and then fall to the ice?
It doesn't surprise me that players like Gretzky are against taking fighting out of the game. He played in an era where you could punch an opposing player in the face and steal his wallet without a call. No wonder the players needed to police themselves. I think for fighting to be pulled out of the game the rules will have to severely punish any player for unsavoury play. That would be my non-negotiable for this to work.