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September 30, 2009

Comments

Mario.garisto@gmail.com

Hey Damien,

I would say that the numbers from an outsiders point of view are truly spectacular. However, as a Toronto fan I would say Sundin did not make his teammates better. Toronto's record when he was out of the lineup turned out to be pretty good, and I would even venture to say the leafs played more as a team when he was not around. His reputation is tarnished and his inability to put himself before the team during the playoffs will always linger. Raising his number to the rafters is a no brainer, but he was never a player people looked to emulate, in minor league circles. People that understood the game saw his ability to hold the puck in the corner and keep it on his stick with a glue like tendency until the perfect pass could be made, but his inability to be flashy was his achillies heal in the toronto market. Do something simple when he enters the hall of fame and maybe by then people will have forgotten. However, if Toronto turns their fortunes around quickly Sundin could be all but forgotten in five years time.


Peter

well written, Damien. but it won't matter because the Sundin bashing idiots will be out in full force anyway.
he was one of the best ever and the classiest guy this team ever had since Dave Keon. the fact he doesn't have a Cup ring means nothing to his achievements. it was not his fault that hi never had anybody to play with at least not to his level. Gilmour didn't win a Cup with the Leafs nor did Wendel. Does this make them less of a player? i don't think so. i hope to see Sundin's jersey go up to the rafters soon. hopefully the organization will do the right thing this time.

Steve@The Spectator

I've searched yet never been able to find an explanation for the origin of the "Muskoka Five" moniker. Can I assume that it's because the five players in question had cottages in Muskoka? Or is there something else involved?

Rick

Mats Sundin is not as worthy of those players whose banners have been rasied to the rafters. That is the overwhelming sentiment out there and those that are on the inside of the hockey world never want to comment on the Mats Sundin issue for fear of being identified as saying something negative. there's alot more here but the bottom line is that his number tarnishes the achievements of the rest of those players already up there. Ask the question of what player does not belong up there and the answer always results with "Mats Sundin". I will not be watching that event for sure!!!!

Martin

I'd take another run at Keon and raise both 13 and 14 sweaters next season. In many ways, they had a lot in common as Leafs.

Regg

One individual doesn`t win you a Stanley Cup. Gilmour/Clark/Sittler, how many cups did they bring to Toronto???? Who could possibly make Tie Domi, Thomas Hoglund or Robert Reichel any better? Wayne Gretzky? Its hilarious how some Toronto fans love to wear such giant blinders. As for the Muskoka five, at the time there were roughly a 100 other players who had no-trade clauses. Trading any of those players definitely did not guarantee a better team. Sundin deserves kudos for putting up with all the nonsense in Toronto by media and some fans!

chris

Mats Sundin was one of the best and classiest players ever to play for the Toronto Maple Leafs. A fact that is lost on a lot of idiot Leaf fans who would try and find fault for just about anything he did. Sundin's career would have been better served playing in another city that would have appreciated all he did.

Sam

Muskoka 5? Oh please. Everyone acts like they committed sin by not sacrificing themselves for trade. You want them to act like tools? Throw out their self respect to a team that doesn't care about them anymore? Make no mistake, it wasn't just the fans, the media painted them in a negative light too. As for Sundin, it's sad to see all his years of service are stained because people in Toronto are irrational fools.

general borschevsky

Hey Damien. Great post. I only have one issue with it:

"never as beloved as Clark, Gilmour, Curtis Joseph or Tie Domi"

Clark and Gilmour - true. Jospeh and Domi? No way. I was at the Festival Cup last year. Everyone was there to see Sundin, not Cujo (or even Dougie). Domi was a popular player but I think most people view him as an amusing half-wit thug or just an embarrassing clown. The standing ovation last year for Sundin was remarkable and very moving. Domi will never receive anything like that from Leaf fans and never has.

True that Sundin never eclipsed the stratospheric popularity of Dougie and Wendel, but that's shouldn be a slight. He's easily up there with Cujo and he's way, way ahead of Domi in terms of respect, appreciation, and admiration.

BT

Sundin never had a chance to win overwhelming support from Toronto fans, and that's a shame. He came in immediately after two of the team's most charismatic & feisty captains in Clark & Gilmour, and he played a completely different style of game. The fact that he is Swedish in the middle of Don Cherry country probably didn't help matters either.

Yet all he did, year after year, was rack up boatloads of points on teams that never had a great deal of offensive talent, and quietly became of the the best players & captains in Leafs history.

He absolutely deserves to be in the Hall of Fame, and I would hate to see another Maple Leaf wear #13.

moe green

loved sundin. good player, made a whack a dough. should have retired a leaf. raise his number to the rafters. nuff said.

Conn Smythe

I've always liked Sundin (2nd fav Leaf after Wendel) and when they raise his sweater to the rafters at the ACC I will be there to cheer him on.

DM

I would hope that Sundin would get his own banner raising night, and not have to share the night with anyone, Rick Vaive included. He deserves at least that. Then again, the Leafs usually muck these events up, especially compared to the Habs and Rangers.

D.B

The leafs were fortunate to have Sundin, and I don't begrudge his departure. He gave his best years to the franchise, never complained, always tried to do the right thing, performed consistently. His no-trade clause was HIS right, and of all the leaf players in the past 2 decades he was the one who earned it the most. His lack of a cup ring is a potential threat to his hall of fame candidacy though, and I'm not sure he's in the same class as Yzerman, Sakic, Stevens, or even Francis from recent years. He might get in based on a slow year, he's certainly the 'best' of the non-cup winning captains from the 1990s.

Richmond

I watched Sundin play a lot. He is a great player. It is pity that he could not get Stanley cup. Anyway, he has a greate hockey career.

John Richardson

Rick said, "Mats Sundin is not as worthy of those players whose banners have been rasied to the rafters"

Do you actually know ANYTHING about hockey?

In 18 seasons Mats had 564 goals and 785 assists in 1,346 games (1349 points) is tied for 20th on the all-time goals list with Joe Nieuwendyk and is 25th on the all-time points list.

To put that in perspective, George Armstrong, who was undoubtedly a great captain, had a total of 713 points in about 1200 games.

And Mats did win an Olympic Gold Medal.

Sure-fire Hall of Famer.

Rink Rage

His "honored number" banner can go up when the next Cup banner goes up.

Jim

preface this by saying im neither a Leafs nor Canucks fan

"and he made not the slightest difference to a Canucks team that fell to Chicago in the post-season."

huh?????
maybe not so much in the season, but he was prob the Canucks 2nd best player in that last series - and that's the reason they got him
he had 2 points in 3 of the 6 games, and a pt in a another
he had the winning goal or record in the third period of Game 6 at which point half of his teammates evidently decided the game was over
if you mean it didn't affect the overall outcome, boy, that's pretty unfairly damning
had a lot more to do with the defencemen imitating pylons and Luongo morphing into Raycroft.
he mas more vital to the Canucks in that series than Hossa was to the Wings in the final, that's for sure

Ankur

Well said by D.B. He is a tier below the true stars of the game duruing his time, the Sakic, Yzerman, Madano and Stevens.

What I remember most unfortunately is the 2002 playoff run and the lose to Carolina Hurricanes, the team was rolling, coming off a series 3-2 down to the Sens and winning that series and game 1 of the conference final and then he returned and the leafs ended up losing 4 of the next 5 games. After that my opinion that Sundin was never going to lead the leafs to the cup was finalized.

To all the people who think I am an idiot and a Sundin Basher, I do not know what to say, he had teams of great players, Mogilny, Roberts, Neweindyk, Nolan, Kaberle, Leetch, a solid core of players that he could not lead to the promise land. Too all the people who say the leafs had nobody to help him, please look over the rosters from 2000 to 2004. The Red Wing in 2002, had mulitple players on their last legs and won the cup, yet somehow when the leafs tried, with similar great old players, it was still not enough for Sundin.

At the end, he was a great player, but not a franchise superstar that wins a cup, that most leaf fans think he was, due to the hype, just like they thought McCabe was a great defenceman and Luke Scheen being ready for the NHL last year and those "idiots" screaming for Khadri to make the team !

Dave Uxbridge

What I enjoyed more than anything about Mats is that he was just as happy when someone else on the team scored as if he scored the goal himself. If he was anything, he was genuine. The game that stands out the most for me was him shooting one puck that became his 500th goal, a winner, in overtime to boot. Not many 500th goals by players were that dramatic. How did he celebrate? When introduced as the 1st Star of the game, HE applauded the Leaf faithful. Humble is always a good thing and often garners even more respect. Thank You for the memories Mats.

2nd Guess

If Sundin is to be bashed for taking the Leafs no further than two Stanley Cup semifinals (1999 & 2002), how come Sittler, McDonald, Turnbull and the sainted group from that era aren't similarly hammered for getting that far only once (1978)? Not to ride Sittler, but he was the team's points leader in 8 of his 12 seasons here -- Sundin led in 12 of 13.

As for the no-trade clause, save some criticism for Leafs management -- they approved it. And, like it or not, there was never a condition that stated it should only be exercised at the team's convenience.

Michael

Rick, go crawl back under the rock you have been living under.

Considering the vitriol the supposed "fans" had for Sundin, I think his decision to not waive the no-trade clause proves the amount of class the man has, to not be willing to turn his back on the city despite his detractors. And to have the faith in his teammates when management AND fans did not.

I do not think the Leafs should "honour" his number. It's time to break with the 15 year old tradition. Retire it. No more 13's in Maple Leaf sweaters. For his dedication to this team over 13 seasons, and for the skill he demonstrated (Mogilny is the only winger that could be in the same discussion), it is the least the organization could do.

Habib

Dont get all hyped about banner ceremonies. All they are are pieces of rags with one or two digits on it. They are not as revered as the ones hanging in Montreal, Detroit, Boston, fill original 6 teamname here other than Toronto. The Leafs organization is an embarrassment in dealing with their alumnists. Just ask Dave Keon. I'm glad Mats didnt retire as a Leaf. If I were him, he should go to Colorado (in honour of Quebec) to have his number raised.

Chris K

Mats was the man...unfortunately most of the time, the only man the Leafs had. Not his fault one bit.

I can't wait until they raise the banner for him! I for one will be on my feet applauding.
The guy scored the most goals and most points in Leaf history, and was captain for what, 11 years? How do you not honour his #? He was pretty much the only thing that kept hockey interesting in Toronto for so many years (Okay, maybe Mogilny, Roberts and Neiwendyk for like a year each).

Sure, he didn't win a cup, but he was never really given a chance...one man can't win it all! And you can't blame him for not waiving his no-trade clause...what's the point of giving him one if you're going to ask him to waive it? He earned it. Same with Kaberle, he took at least half a million less a year in his contract to get that no-trade clause, I don't blame him one bit for not waiving it!

Anyway, #13 may not be my favourite Leaf of all time, but he definitely deserves to be up there in the rafters.
And I'll never forget that 500th goal he scored...short-handed overtime winner to complete the hat-trick...priceless!!!

Idiot Leaf Fan

The Sundin era, endless as it seemed is over. As a Leaf he was always paid in the league's top echalon, but seldom cracked the top 25 in scoring. A consistant 70 - 75 point man, paid like a Forsberg or a Thornton.

9 million for 72 points that's the Sundin legacy I'll remember.

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The Spin on Sports by Damien Cox



  • Damien Cox, the Star's hockey columnist and associate sports editor, takes turns stirring up trouble and chuckling at the foibles of the sporting world. He'll start with hockey, Canada's ongoing passion play, and stick his nose into a few other games and places where athletes reside. You'll love some of his thoughts, hate others and get a chance to give your two cents on all of them.

    Click here to send Damien your Maple Leafs or hockey question and he'll answer a selection in the blog.

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