Pointless Threats

Bob Young is a rich man used to getting his way. That he apparently won't when it comes to the location of a new stadium in Hamilton, a building that would theoretically house his perenially lousy Tiger-Cats, has to be really bugging him.

After all, it wasn't that long ago that Young was touted as a civic hero for buying the Cats out of insolvency, an Ancaster boy who said he was realizing a dream by buying the football club he grew up loving.

Well, the love affair ended a while ago. Young has done a lamentable job of bringing winning football back to Hamilton - the team hasn't been to the Grey Cup since 1999 - and his attempt this week to try and scare Hamilton city council to put the stadium designed for the 2015 Pan-Am Games at his desired location has apparently fallen on deaf ears.

Hard to say who is right in this debate. As a born and bred Hamiltonian, I have seen the downtown core deteriorate drastically over the past 40 years, nothing like my youth when we'd go ride the classic elevator at the Right House near Gore Park just for fun.  The West Hamilton bay location where city fathers would like the stadium to go has slowly improved over the past 20 years, but it's not easy to get to. They want it there in hope that it might, maybe, help revitalize the downtown core. Look around, and it's happened that way in more than a few North American cities.

Young, meanwhile, couldn't care less about downtown revitalization. He wants the stadium on the east mountain, in the burbs, really, where new highways have created access and visibility. That makes some sense, too. His frustration with the process is understandable in a city where politics have created all kinds of development issues.

But this was always going to be a negotiation, and while Young can huff and puff, his football team supplies nine dates a year out of 365 days, although if he could organize a team capable of making the playoffs he might manage another one or two. That might make him the main tenant, but running a money-losing team that usually loses more than it wins does not exactly give him a big hammer to wield. That tiny Regina has built a strong team on community ownership during the same period where Richie Rich has turned the Cats into a consistent cellar dwellar doesn't exactly speak to his expertise.

So Young threatens to what, move the team? To where, exactly. Not Burlington. Ottawa? They're slated for expansion, and nobody really knows if even that will happen. Then there's Quebec City and Moncton and a bunch of other places, and we're supposed to believe a CFL team is going to abandon southern Ontario and Hamilton, and the new stadium that will apparently be built one way or another, for another Canadian city where no stadium exists? C'mon. 

Young may not like the West Hamilton location but he undoubtedly doesn't like where Ivor Wynne is, either. Maybe he knows better, but maybe he doesn't. Maybe he knows how to run a CFL team - he's been botching the job on this one since 2004 - and maybe he doesn't.

But apparently he isn't likely to get his way on this stadium. If he doesn't want to be part of the Tiger-Cats future, he can sell the team. Or try to. But moving it? Not a chance. Teams fold in the CFL and sometimes come back, but they don't move. No viable markets, you see. So Young should swallow his pride and ego, cut his best deal or get out. Empty threats are a waste of everyone's time.

If he does decide to conclude his ownership of the team, it's not exactly like a golden era in Hamilton football will come to a close.

Comments

[Frank Garritty]

COX. Stick to hockey. Hamilton deserves better than a stubborn city council. As a "Regina Boy" working together produces great results. A storied CFL franchise deserves better civic leadership.

[Chuck W]

I think you're way off base with this one Damien. First of all, this is about the Ticats as it is as much about the Pan-Am games. A sports stadium is about making money, and anyone else who says to the contrary is a bad business person. After the 3 weeks of Pan-Am games that, let's face it, no one is really gonna go watch, then what? Why is there a stadium in the middle of downtown with no tenant? Urband revitalization only happens in other cities because there's something to go watch. So I think the City of Hamilton better think of a better way to revitalize their downtown than a stadium and use this Pan-AM/Provincial/Federal money (That they may never see again) and build a stadium in place that will actually be beneficial to the football team and main tenant. There's a legacy clause built into this stadium deal, so if the Ticats are out then Hamilton might get nothing at all. Bob Young is no fool, Mr Cox. He's well aware of that clause.

Oh and to blame Bob Young for having a lousy football team, well he's not the one wearing the shoulder pads, holding the clip board, or signing the players. All he does is sign paycheques, and all he wants is a fair shot at breaking even or even make a profit (dare I say). So If he says the West Harbour site will not let him to do that, then I have a tendancy to believe him.

The fact of the matter is that long after the Pan-Am games are gone and forgotten, the Ticats will remain, and let's face it, there aren't too many redeeming qualities to the City of Hamilton but the pride the city has in it's TiCats (despite the losing) is one of them and is one of the lone sources of civic pride in Steeltown so they should be given the best oportunity to succeed.

[Pauly Walnuts]

Born and raised in Stoney Creek. I am not proud to say I am from Hamilton. You support the west harbour decision based on the success of other downtown stadiums. The one point that you omit is the fact that all of these other stadiums have major highways running through or very close to their downtowns. Huge difference! Proponents of the west harbour site say there is no transportation available to the east mountain location. Please take a look at the transportation plans being proposed and you will see that the east mountain site will have plenty of options available in the future. This decision lacked a process behind it. Mayor Fred was buying up properties in the west harbour, even though the site was not yet approved. So who has the agenda here? And why was the Confederation Park location never even discussed? I think that Chad Collins has some explaining to do on this. Talk about hidden agendas. Anybody who slags Ron Foxcroft, Bob Young and David Braley really ought to have their heads examined. These men bring a track record of success and are very thorough in their decision making processes. But in Hamilton, they are viewed as villains. In Hamilton, you are an enemy of the state if you bring any sort of thought and logic to the table. This is just another example of Hamilton politicians screwing things up. My Hamilton includes the East Mountain!!

[Pigskin Pete]

RE: dsssJohnny Bodsih | comments. Nice handle by the way. Did you think of that yourself. Give me a break. Hamilton burns the future on West Harbour Pan Am games stadium that no one else uses. I would bet that it doesn't happen now becuase it's a big waste of money. Without Bob, it will have 15,000 seats. What is a FC game? West Harbour is old school thinking an does not lend itself to future...and go back to school and learn that we're is short for WE ARE. Try to get it right and enjoy your ride on the go train to a stadium that has no events. I'll be in the pasture watching football somewhere else.

[TBot]

First, the primary catalyst for building the stadium is for the Pan-Am games and the city hopes to use it to spur development within the city (West Harbour).
On the other hand, Bob Young's primary concern is making his team successful and as profitable as possible. And this has to be done over the 9 (+playoffs we hope) home games that the team will see each season. As a business man, it is his goal to ensure his team has the best chance at that, so he does not need to be forced by the city to play where they want, espescially if it will have a negative impact on his business. He can build his own stadium or move the team outright.

These are, on the surface, two independant issues of each other. Where these two issues tie together is that the Hamilton Pan-Am bid was put in place in conjuction with having the Ti-Cats as the primary tenants, they weren't a bonus possible addition to the outcome, which does put their needs on equal standing as the city. Mr. Young has already compromised from his preferred location, but the city can't seem to do the same.
What Mr. Young is doing is not threats or ultimatums, but him protecting his business interests, which he has every right to.

As for comments regarding accesability, it is noted that 50% of the city find the mountain inaccessible. The only reason the East Mountain is 'inaccessible' is the difficulty in getting OUT of Hamilton, not IN to the East mountain. The flip side of this coin is that the current location and the West Harbour location is inaccessible to the other 50% due to the maze of Hamilton streets. Add to this that the downtown locations area also inaccessible to the out-of-town fans, beyond the residents. Is the city only interested in providing the venue for it's own citizens? This would mean the local economy for the venue is only feeding itself - a net 0 economic addition. Usually the goal of any attraction is to bring out-of-town people into a city/region to add to the economy. The East Mountain (and even more so, Confederation Park) would do this much better than the West Harbour. Add to this, that if you can't get people to come in to the building, it will be very difficult to attract events to it for the rest of the year. (Read: event promoters like to make money, not lose it, just like Mr. Young).

[Chris]

What was left out of this article -

1.) Young was willing to pony up to 70-75 million of his own funds. Not only for the stadium at his preferred location but also to build additional facilities for the City. Including assisting in cleaning up the Harbor front.

2.) Hamilton doesn't get a dime of the funds from the feds or the province if the Ti-Cats aren't involved.

3.) While I understand City Hall's logic in their desire to clean up the Harbor front, and I also understand that if the infrastructure was already in place, that a lakefront stadium would be a positive attraction, there's just nothing in place right now to support a stadium. Oh, small detail, the stadium would only hold 15,000 people. That's a soccer stadium, not a football stadium, and certainly not an all purpose stadium.

4.) You figured Hamilton would have learned from their disaster of Copps which is located smack in the middle of downtown, with no parking, poor location and again, an infrastructure that isn't suited for large traffic.

5.) Lots of arguments about how there's only 10 dates a year that the Ti-Cats play however for a city that has been pretty much kicked to the curb, the Ti-Cats are all they have going for them. Sometimes it's not just about the money but the bigger picture..

6.) The argument that there are no "stadiums" in other Canadian cities is a foolish one - plenty of college stadiums that the Ti-Cats could use until a new stadium is built. So slum it out for a year or two while waiting for your new stadium or stay in Hamilton in a "new" stadium that only holds 15000 people and if you want to expand it, pay for it out of your own pocket. Which really defeats the purpose of building the stadium in the first place if you're already building a facility that's inadequate.

7.) As mentioned in Point 3, the amount of money being awarded for the stadium by the government (fed/prov) is supposedly around 55 million or so, with the city forking over the difference for a 15,000 stadium seems pricey until you look closer. Hamilton isn't going to use the funds to build the stadium but merely build a stadium on the side while spending a majority of the funds on "fixing" the Harbor so it's similar to Burlington and Oakville waterfront. Young saw through this and called a spade a spade.

8.) The City of Hamilton has shown no desire to cooperate, despite independent studies concluding that the Harbor front location is the worst possible location for a Stadium at this time.

All in all, this is the City's mess, greed, corruption and incompetent that resulted in this mess. They see the Pan Am games as an opportunity to get their hands on some federal money to help clean up some of the city but entirely missed the point on the requirements on obtaining that money. The funds to clean up the City of Hamilton should have came from the Feds during their "stimulus" package that the city should have capitalized on, but in the end, they'll lose out, not only on the Ti-Cats but any chance of revitalizing the city.

[silent sam]

Serge - you beat me to the punch. Quebec City could easily support a CFL team and I'm surprised Cox would so flippantly dismiss it.

The rivalry with the Alouettes alone would dwarf the "labour day classic" - a classic that few in Toronto cares about....

[ts]

re. samthemacman:

One of the most asinine posts ever. The Quebec stadium has EVEN LESS PARKING THAN WEST HARBOUR. Not to mention that the whole rumour of discussion with the city are total bull.

[Aaron Chree]

Wow what a breath of fresh air.

This stadium debate is obscene. The team is entitled to act like a business and focus on a money-making objective. The City, and the fans, for that matter, are supposed to make a decision with their heart rather then their heads and do whatever it takes to keep the team, and appease the owner. It's not even his playbook. George Steinbrenner pulled this stunt with the Yankees 20 years ago, and the twins did it by putting forward the idea that the twin cities would be "like Fargo".

And evidently it doesn't matter how many logical arguments can be made: The fact that sub-urban stadiums with gargantuan parking lots DO create tremendous traffic Jams (Ottawa). The fact that city after city has shown how downtown stadiums help the downtown (Stamps and Flames - both on the LRT, neither near the highway). Bob Young's own words when the land was first bought up!

No all of that doesn't matter because Bob has "studies and experts" that show how flawed the West Harbour plan is. I have yet to read the *name* of one of these so-called experts let alone where I can find these reports. City council certainly never got them. You'd have thought he'd want them to read them if they're so enlightening. Nope, we're supposed to blindly trust that they're out there and that because Bob Young has money he's smarted then the rest of us.

[BILL M]

it all comes down to the size of stadium !!!!!! 15 000 seats !!!!! 15000 seats is not a good size for pro football it would be an embarasment . when the league is looking at a minimum of 25 000 seats . the hamilton city council our way out to lunch on the size of a stadium that is needed to be viable and profitable in this time of day . they are worried about the cost , is spending minimal money the answer NOT IN A MILLION YEARS.

YOU NEED A STADIUM THE FANS WILL BE PROUD OF AND THE CITY WOULD BE PROUD OF . 15000 SEATS WILL BE A JOKE A NATION WIDE JOKE .
Quebec city is ready add 10 000 temp seats at laval and you have a stadium of 25000 plus . temp till they build a new one . so if you think a team can't move your being very nieve ............. wake up hamilton , WAKE UP !!!!!!!!

[leyland85]

As a resident of the Hamilton downtown, who is just sick of this whole situation, you could say I have have some bias as to supporting a stadium on the harbour.

For me, I look at the East mountain as the worst possible spot, for a couple of reasons:
1) The Red Hill has this tendancy to flood in heavy rain and has been shut down a number of times now
2) May as well be Stoney creek ti-cats being all the way out there in the middle of now where
3) Less accessibility - your going to have to drive all the way out to suburbia, along with less parking, and I have to mention that the LINC isn't exactly the 403... which is how far away from the harbour?
4) Will cost more to develop and maintain, and will take up soon to be valuable green space.

Confed. Park is just that a park, no place for a stadium imo.

Now the WH is fairly centrally located; walkable (for me aleast), gets rid of cumbersome brownspaces, more parking (/s you know ivor wynne has tons of that.../s), already has the infrastructure in place, lots of business' in the area, the north end is already revitalizing this will only add to that.

I could keep going, but I'm going to switch gears.

The city has totally lost the ball on this, and Mister Bob you didn't help.
We more then likely won't get the stadium (no 'legacy' tenant(s)) and quite simply Ivor Wynne is 80(!) years old. Short of tearing it and Scott Park down (theres and idea!!) to place a new stadium where it always has been. I really am disappointed that this good news has turned so ugly.

[Serge Defoy]

re: Silent Sam - I suggest you to read part of an article published in April 2009 in Le Soleil. Here's a part of it:
The town hall of Quebec juggles with the idea to transform the hippodrome into multipurpose stadium from 35.000 to 40000 places for professional soccer, football of the Canadian League and spectacles.
It is not the first time that Quebec raises these questions. Nor the first time besides which one evokes the idea to replace the hippodrome by a stadium.
A multipurpose stadium would be perfectly compatible with the vocation of ExpoCité. There is already parking, road accesses. That make sens.
The scenario to which dream the town hall would like that the principal building with its beautiful frontage is preserved. This building shelters already glazed air conditioned steps of 3500 places.
Cloakrooms and equipment related to the behaviour of spectacles could be arranged on the lower floors.
For the remainder, it would be a question of moving lighting, of unrolling an artificial turf and of adding aluminium steps as at the stadium of soccer Saputo, in Montreal, stadium which would cost on the whole 15 million $.
With the first glance, the project of stadium to the hippodrome seems so not very expensive that the municipal administration even thinks of building it without the assistance of the private one.
If Quebec wants to obtain a concession of the Canadian Football League, it will need a stadium. To increase that of the PEPS is not an option, unless all demolishing and to start again to zero.
It is here that the reflexion of the town hall on the hippodrome becomes interesting.
And you can visit the site at:

http://www.expocite.com/www/homepage.php

I just wanted to tell you in Hamilton, take care of your team you realy could loose it.

[Al]

OK everyone. Go to Pittsburgh, Montreal, or anywhere else that has a stadium close to the core of the city. The fan experience is drastically better. I would expect that most fans supporting the east mountain location have never had that experience-it does not even come close. I do not blame Young for attempting to convince the city that it should not be downtown. Think about it....he does not want people stopping at bars and restaurants on their way to and from the game. He wants fans to purchase food and beverages at the stadium. An east mountain location provides that situation for him. In addition, Young can make enough money in parking to pay for his entire Canadian roster-that is a fact. The business plan is more suitable for Young and he is not telling the fans about this because it does not make him look good. Which situation is better for the fan though? This should be easy. Don't give me this garbage about parking. Approx 30,000 fans in Pittsburgh cannot park anywhere near the stadium. Go to Pittsburgh and witness the migration of fans to the game-a beautiful sight. Many leave early so they can eat or have a drink prior to the game-just what the Cats don't want. I am a business owner in Hamilton and a former university football player. I am a fan of the game of football and I will tell you that most business owners do not like the present fan experience in Hamilton or the one presented by the east mountain location. I would enjoy a downtown stadium....and I will get to the facility just as I did in 1987 for the Canada cup hockey games...no problem. Game day traffic is crazy anywhere you go but the game day experience is key to the success-not just the game itself.

[Anton Mesrobian]

Dr. Bernie Mullen, Denis Braham and Brian Cooper are the experts listed in Bob Young's "Go East Mountain" .pdf. In the interest of getting this thing done you'd hope that there would be complete transparency and an open door policy when it comes to the Cats and the City. If they have information that would allow for a sound decision... they should share it.

[Serge Defoy]

Me again, sorry great game tonight, I would like to have this team in Quebec... ;-) I watched it on Internet! And for Al I understand your point of vue (I am a business owner in Hamilton and a former university football player. I am a fan of the game of football and I will tell you that most business owners do not like the present fan experience in Hamilton or the one presented by the east mountain location. I would enjoy a downtown stadium....)You think at your pocket like the actual owner of Tiger Cats do! ;-)
But as a fan of football here, I don't expect to search for a restaurant before going to a game. The only thing I think about is going there as fast as possible to be at the tailgate and enjoy onsite food! So, sorry, football is not hockey! FOOTBALL IS A PARTY THAT BEGIN WHEN YOU ARE ON THE SITE! And the last thing you think about is going in a restaurant before... Football is being on the site as soon as possible and have fun! Hockey is a show with no tailgate, you then can schedule a night with a good supper before the game... For all that story, I'm sure Ticats will stay in Hamilton because of the 100 years history, but just for that, not for people who don't support them... Sorry, but you face today is so close to what we lived in 1995 Everybody said "Impossible they can not leave, it's just to get more from governments" Just blackmailing... THEY LEFT!

[brian]

To all the outsiders that dont realize the true facts i will share some with you. Bob young was offerring $15 million of his money towards a stadium that would cost $150 millon or more (maybe less than 10% he would pay). The city picked the west harbor not just because they thought it was a better location..they picked it because the east mountain would cost $80 million + more to build it there. Also the fact the stadium itself is still short $25-$35 million (which people really keep forgetting). Bob young stated last night basically that a crowd of 25,000 would be a break even point. Well who in their right minds would spend a extra $80 million just for him to break even.?? This would also result in a tax increase of maybe 4-5%..also something people forget. He also proposed at this east mountain location to build a 7,000 car parking lot....that is the dumbest thing i have ever heard in my life for something that would use it 10 times. No sports team in canada has a parking lot anywhere near that size. I checked edmontons and it says it has no stadium parking period..and they have the largest crowds. He wants this dumb parking lot because he knows you would be forced to use it and pay $15-20 for it, plain and simple. This access and parking crap for the west harbor location is absolutely bull .It's just down the street from copps its not that far and jim basillie thought it would be ok to have a nhl team down there...with no big parking lot. The distance people whould have to walk to get to a nhl game there is very similar to parking down at the harbor location and going to a ticat game. It a absolute distortion/ lie whatever you want to call it that he is getting from so called "experts' in all of this. When there is a full copps for something (18,000)..the mall is attached to it and other things...would be basically equal to a football game down there. Also a sold out stadium now with close to 30,000 results in no big issues getting out of there...with less parking availble...its a lie. I basically think it comes down to this he is getting all his info from "experts" and its too bad. Currently the crowds are averaging 22,000 at a 80 year old stadium for a team that has won 30% of its games since he has owned them..quite possibly the worst record in all of sports in that time period. Had he not opened his yap and been pre west harbor..his fans would have followed him..ticat fans in general think he is a god. They would have followed him to a stadium at the harbor and it would have sold out....the team is currently on a upswing record wise last few years and may actually become one of the best team for years to come. The mere fact that it would be limited to 25,000 would have guaranteed sell outs...but because of bad expert information the city is split 50-50 where to put it. I guarantee you a majority of that 50% supporting him..it has nothing do with location at all..its just his because he's threatened to move the team.. Those facts and costs are the reason i supported the west harbor..and i dont understand why people think its better to spend 80 million dollars more at another location..in the same city!!

[B.Doiron]

Hamilton,s future is like its past, criminally rusted! Move on Mr. Young there is no future here.

[Quintin Hewlett]

To Chris and others: before we get all happy about our comments indicating that we should let the TiCats do what they want as they are the experts and we should not be telling them how to run their business or how to spend their money, we need to understand that the Cats are asking for about $150 million dollars from taxpayers. Since we are purchasing the stadium, should we not be telling *them* where to play?

What would happen if a company such as Future Shop complained because taxpayers bought them a free downtown location instead of a free suburban location? Obviously, most rational people would not side with Future Shop.

Hamilton needs to ensure that its own needs are met before the city listens to what one small business wants.

[Brendan]

Let them move. City hall has been subsidizing Young's money losing venture for years. Where has it gotten us? Why should we now put all our waterfront development money into a field in the suburbs so that Bob can make a better deal when he sells the team?

[Ferd Buckles]

So Bob Young "couldn't care less about revitalizing downtown revitalization"? Why did he commit millions to rehabilitate the waterfront toxic waste sites, build an amphitheater and other facilities downtown and millions more towards maintenance of these waterfront facilities?
FYI: CFL teams play 10 home dates, not 9 as claimed...and football teams can only get 1 playoff game...not 2 as claimed

Perhaps Cox you should stick to your beloved Leafs and let those more knowledgeable write about football and other sports.