Sucker Punch Or No Sucker Punch?

Amongst a certain portion of hockey fans, this will be an intriguing debate.

Not for me, sadly, because I've long taken the position that any bare-knuckle brawling in the NHL or hockey in general is, in the end, completely pointless. So it's hard for me to get too excited about debating the merits of Tim Gleason's nasty punch on Nikolai Kulemin Monday night in Raleigh. All I see is an incident that had almost nothing to do with the hockey game result in what may be a serious injury, an incident that would not be allowed on the street or in the other major sports.

But, as many have pointed out repeatedly, there's a big chunk of the hockey populace who not only likes this stuff, but thinks it's important, integral to the sport.

Even among them, however, there is going to be division on this incident.

Was Gleason, the Caroina defenceman, well within his rights to haul Kulemin out of a scrum and - we suspect - rearrange his facial features? It was a 10-man scrum that neither player started, but both men started exchanging gloved jabs to the face, and then Gleason separated the Russian from the pack and delivered his uppercut.

One school of thought says that once Kulemin starts throwing 'em, he deserves the outcome.

Then, however, there will be those who would argue that Gleason should have identified Kulemin as, essentially, a non-combatant who doesn't drop his gloves and scrap. In fact, in this case, it was only Gleason who dropped his gloves.

To those that espouse the always mysterious "code," Gleason had no business under any circumstance punching out the Leaf winger, who is likely to miss tonight's game against Tampa with a face and/or head injury.

So to you, fight fans, I look for guidance. Was Gleason right or wrong? Should Kulemin have known what was coming, or should he have as a player who never fights some sort of special protection under the code?

Ron Wilson said it wasn't a sucker punch. Some of his playes disagreed.

Now I await your verdict.

 

 

 

 

 

Comments

[Puckhead]

Both players were throwing jabs in a traditional scrum (the incubator of emotion in hockey games, integral I say), and then when it got intense, Kulemin hesitated and Gleason popped him. No cheap shot, only a lack of readiness of Kulemin's part.
.
Great hockey game last night. Big hits, non-goons fighting out of emotion, lots of goals - what more do you want Damo?

[PC]

Wrong. But marginally. After throwing a few punches Kulemin should be expecting something may come of it. However whether he would have fought or not we won't know as the "fight" began and ended with an unsuspecting punch.

If there's going to be fighting, the participants should at least be ready and willing. Kulemin may have been willing but certainly wasn't ready.

[Framer99]

I don't think it was a sucker punch, but I do think Gleason should have held back some.

That being said... If Schenn had beat the tar out of Ruutu, we would be talking about "The Fight".

The Leafs didn't take any revenge, so they must not have thought it was that bad.

[Glen Thomas]

Tim Gleason would qualify as a "goon." In the history of the NHL there has never been a European "goon" lots of agitators and dirty players but no enforcers. Kulamin could qualify as a hard working candidate for the Lady Byng. To not recognize this situation undoubtably qualifies of the lowest form of sucker punch known to man. What is even more disturbing on the Leaf team that Burke has tried to construct as being beligerant was the complete lack of response from any Leaf to attack Gleason for his dirty deed. Shame on them.

[Falconraptor]

That was illegal and should be charged probably even in criminal court. We all know how legal scrap starts and yes there is a code we expect players to follow. Example of proper engagement was in fact minutes before with McCartur. I'm not even bringing Colton Orr ways. But quietly dropping gloves and hit unexpected player should end behind bars. That is an assault all the way.

[Bakedpot8o]

I agree with you about the division on the incident. Kule comes to Grabo's side to help him out and a little scrum ensues, with a couple of punches being thrown by both sides. To me this is a normal part of the game, a little jostling and jousting that is and should be expected. The problem occurs from here on out. Kule doesnt take off his mitts (as a non-combatant wouldnt and shouldnt) and Gleason cold coxs him. Now the leafs are without arguable their best all aroundforward, due to a non-hockey play. I like passionate fighting in hockey as a result of good competition (see Maccarthur-larose) but Im so tired of the staged fight and the muggings.

[Brian]

Gleason was absolutely within his rights. If you're going to skate into a scrum and start throwing gloved punches, you should be prepared to defend yourself. It wasn't even close to a sucker punch.

Damien, please step far away from hockey and take Pierre McGuire with you. Thanks.

[Adam]

Kulemin got a few blows in on Gleason to start. What did he expect would happen? Gleason would just take it? Sometimes, when you play with fire, you get burned.

[Kirk]

There was a sucker punch on the play but it did not come from Gleason! The sucker punch came directly after Kulimen was poped in the face, from our failing Captain Dion Phaneuf. As a Captain and supposedly a edgy player, when you see one of your top forwards get punched like that you move hell and high water to get at that man. What did Phaneuf do? let a man significantly smaller man hold him to the boards so he could nicely ask Gleason why he punched him? are you serious?

[Hockeyfan11]

Gleason was wrong and got a little carried away in the moment. However, the refs did punish him pretty severely but the Leafs did not make Carolina pay the price on the PP.

Scrums have always occured in hockey and I was not aware that by participating, you somehow implicitly agree to take a bare knuckle to the face as a result. Bare knuckle punching and glove on punching are quite fundamentally different. The league rules even acknowledge this in the sense that nobody is ever deemed to have "fought" when the gloves are still on. No five minute majors for glove on punches.

On another note, what kind of coach responds the way Wilson did? The players defended Kulemin (albeit only verbally, after the game) but Wilson blamed Kulemin. How can the players respect that?

[Dan Cuthbert]

Not a sucker punch. But Gleason was not very honorable either. Yes there is "a code" that most tough guys go by. You don't crank a guy who you already sent to the ice. You don't punch somebody who's in the grasp of that dumb-a** linesman who jumps in and grabs just one guy and you don't purposely fight a non-fighter. Kulemin got more than he deserved. When those scrums start the tough guy going to the guy who doesn't even know you have to take your gloves off? The visor? Gleason knew who he had hold of and could very easily have grabbed him and tossed him to the ice telling Kulemin not to be stupid. Gleason didn't need to have won the race to drop the gloves. It was a fight he was never going to lose and he had to know that. Kulemin got a lesson.....you play with fire, you get burnt. Pretty sure the teacher went over the top sending him to detention though.

[Nathan]

Don't start something you aren't willing to see through to the result.

Don't pick a fight you can't win.

Simple concept.

[Paul W]

Kulemin isn't a fighter, he maybe should have tried covering up a little better,that said,Gleason does know how to throw em pretty good.My only problem is if during their next game Colton Orr challenges Gleason, he will turn him down saying"l'm not in his weight class"...but apparently Kulemin was ?..it kinda makes you sick.

[Peter]

this is the exact reason why you need an Orr or the Boogieman on your team. do you think Gleason had done this if lat's say Parros standing right next to them?

[Krakondack]

My background is not short on rough, tough hockey, but I agree with you. Fights today are either pro-wrestling-like affairs between specialists who are there for that and not their hockey skills, or they are spontaneous, and when that involves a non-figher, particularly a goal-scorer, you get people up in arms that this was not fair, since a valuable player could get hurt. In the old days Bobby Orr held his own in fights. Since today that is off-limits, then all we're left with is the WWF-style fights, that appeal to the low-brow, but leave the rest with a bad taste, or worse (for them), a click of the remote to see something else for 5 minutes.

[Tom]

scrums after the whistle are pointless, and should be banned. Why can the NFL guys stop cold at the whistle, but hockey players cant?

BECAUSE ITS ALLOWED IN THE NHL! ENOUGH ALREADY.

1. Ban scrums after the whistle
2. Ban fighting

your welcome Gary!!

Tom

[Michael]

First off MacArthur is being quasi-hypocritical. MacArthur did a good number on Spacek. While there wasn't a definable 'sucker punch' he most definitely made sure that Spacek (& Korpikosky) wouldn't have a chance to land one by going mental on him (them). MacArthur doesn't have a leg to stand on after going up against another guy(s) 'out of his category,' so that bunks his theory. It was a scrum and this is Kulemin's medicine, if you want to trade blows, sometimes these things will happen.

That said, was it cheap? How did the MSM react to Avery's quick-lander on Smid? If that was cheap, then not even allowing Kulemin a chance to drop the mitts would most definitely fall in that category.

[Skyhawk20002]

There is no right or wrong here.This is a two headed coin.DEFINITELY Kulemin shouldn`t have started rabbit jabs with his gloves on.AND Gleason should also have not punched out a non fighting hockey player.But i`m afraid,even though Gleason knew it was a gimmee,you can`t be jabbing at him.And once again,what`s Gleason doing grabbing a hockey player out of the scrum ? He could have grabbed a willing opponent.There`ll be no clear winner in this debate

[John Richardson]

As I said to my colleague this morning, "Gleason may have broken 'the code', whatever it happens to be today. What section covers, 'it's OK to drop your gloves and re-arrange a guy's face in retaliation to a face-wash?' "

II'm not as vociferously anti-fighting as you, Damien, but the refs should just start tossing guys in the box for unsportsmanlike conduct when one of these pointless scrums break out.

[Kevin]

Punches are punches, whether there's a glove on the fist or not. Kulemin threw punches, therefore, he was fighting. The fact that Kulemin didn't drop his gloves doesn't make him any less a willing participant in this fight. He threw punches at Gleason. If he wants to be treated as a non-combatant, he should try *being* a non-combatant.

[jt]

It was a sucker punch, but it's hardly surprising given he'd already been punched twice in the face (albeit with glove). Not a huge fan of fighting in the game as it is but I don't exactly pity Kulemin here.

[AJ]

Gloved jabs are different then suddenly dropping your gloves and popping the guy in the face. Had Kulemin dropped his gloves, he would've opened himself up to that, but to be in a scrum, drop your gloves and then plow into the guys face, thats a little excessive.

I think he got what he deserved. Refs handled it right. Game and a 5. Just too bad the leafs couldn't convert.

[trying to believe]

The biggest sucker punch is the the one we keep taking with a useless, arrogant and overrated coach. Not a sucker punch?...he hadnt even dropped his gloves! End of discussion. But hey, thanks for sticking up for your players Ron...any wonder they have no desire to play for you and cant wait -- like the rest of us -- for you to be fired!

[s0bad]

Not a sucker punch. If anything this incident sets a standard - may eliminate some of the gratuitous 'face wash' and glove jabs.

In the replay Kuly clearly hits Gleeson twice with his mits on. I find this cowardly and never ever gets called by the refs in a scrum. Face washing from now on should be looked at as intent to fight.

Tie up your guy in a scrum - fine - but as soon as you hit someone in the face - gloves on or off - i say your fair game.

[nugentmania]

Well....when I heard McCarthur's soundbite this morning, the first thing that went through my mind was this: If there is an onus on Gleason to make some sort of distinction between Kulemin and, lets say, Mike Brown, then I would think that there is an equal onus on Kulemin to differentiate between Tim Gleason and, lets say, anyone McCarthur thinks isn't the "fighting type" before he starts throwing punches with his gloves on..........as for this "code" in which I believe you and I share an equal contempt for, the concept lost all credibility once NHL players starting fighting to avenge solid, clean bodychecks.